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Tom Bartlett
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Quote:
On 2007-02-10 13:06, evolve629 wrote:
Green is an ideology. However, it's ultimately fatal when an ideology fails to correspond with reality.


I could not agree with you more, and Green does not correspond with reality.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
Tom Bartlett
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On 2007-02-10 13:13, Michael Kamen wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-02-10 12:42, Tom Bartlett wrote:
. . .I’m not saying that Global Warming is not at all real, what I’m say is we did not have any thing to do with it the first time it happened and man is not the cause of now. If and when it does happen, it is simply part of the cycle of life, much like the seasons and we are not the cause of it and neither can we stop it.


I do not doubt that you really believe the above statement. I just am confused as to how you conclude that those who disagree with this statement are part of a conspiracy, and a socialist conspiracy to boot. If there is an underlying logic, please share it.


Please don't spin my words. I did not say that all people that disagree with my statements are part of a socialist conspiracy. Some of the people I know and love, disagree with me and are very sincere in their belief, but that does not mean that they are not unwillingly being used by the promoters of socialism.
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Michael Kamen
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Ok, thanks for the correction. I did not intend to spin your words. I still do not see how the global warming issue benefits socialists more than other philosophical bents.
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evolve629
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How is environmentalism perceives as a socialism agenda? One excellent example is Mikhail Gorbachev. Mr. Gorbachev is now the president of Green Cross International (a non-governmental environmental organization). Among the many issues with which Green Cross International has become involved, global warming is right at the top of its list. I never once heard the Soviet dictator express concern about the environment. However, Mr. Gorbachev has identified environmentalism as a Trojan horse capable of resurrecting socialism on a global scale. Thus, Mikhail Gorbachev views environmentalism (with its anti-capitalist mentality) as the movement most likely to succeed in defeating capitalism.

Nonetheless, many people argue that the Kyoto protocol would cost nearly 5,000,000 jobs in the U.S. alone. Of course, environmentalists claimed that there is a bigger picture here. All people, especially those living in industrialized countries such as the U.S., must sacrifice in order to win the universal struggle against global warming. It appears that the environmentalists have succeeded in hammer away property rights in the United States in order to protect Mother Earth as they see fit (i.e. through the Clean Water Act, through the Endangered Species Act, through ridiculous wetlands legislation, through air quality laws, etc). It seems the real struggle is between liberty and totalitarianism. For if environmentalists succeed in gradually taking away our private property rights, then a free market and liberty cannot exist. Thus, one can contend that the struggle against environmentalism is actually a struggle for liberty.
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Michael Kamen
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On 2007-02-10 14:49, evolve629 wrote:
. . .Mr. Gorbachev has identified environmentalism as a Trojan horse capable of resurrecting socialism on a global scale. Thus, Mikhail Gorbachev views environmentalism (with its anti-capitalist mentality) as the movement most likely to succeed in defeating capitalism. . .


Granted that global warming is an environmental issue. You offer me the conjecture that because a socialist (presuming Gorbachev is still a socialist), or even socialist organizations associate themselves with the issue, they must do so not because they believe the increase in greenhouse gases is a global threat to humanity, but as a cynical bid for world domination. But you have not demonstrated that the issue would cease to be an existential problem for the world if the socialists butted out.

Based on what you have said so far, I conclude that your beliefs about socialism are irrelevant to the issue.
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Tom Bartlett
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On 2007-02-10 15:21, Michael Kamen wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-02-10 14:49, evolve629 wrote:
. . .Mr. Gorbachev has identified environmentalism as a Trojan horse capable of resurrecting socialism on a global scale. Thus, Mikhail Gorbachev views environmentalism (with its anti-capitalist mentality) as the movement most likely to succeed in defeating capitalism. . .


Granted that global warming is an environmental issue. You offer me the conjecture that because a socialist (presuming Gorbachev is still a socialist), or even socialist organizations associate themselves with the issue, they must do so not because they believe the increase in greenhouse gases is a global threat to humanity, but as a cynical bid for world domination. But you have not demonstrated that the issue would cease to be an existential problem for the world if the socialists butted out.

Based on what you have said so far, I conclude that your beliefs about socialism are irrelevant to the issue.


Yes I did address this quite clearly and here it is agin.

I’m not saying that Global Warming is not at all real, what I’m say is we did not have any thing to do with it the first time it happened and man is not the cause of now. If and when it does happen, it is simply part of the cycle of life, much like the seasons and we are not the cause of it and neither can we stop in.

I also conclude, that the fear of global catastrophe due to warming is no more justified, than the fear aliens from another solarsystem, attacking within the same time frame.

Evolve629,

You have made some very fine points backed up with good solid and confirmed information. Way to go.

If the people here are truly seeking the truth they can find the information on line for themselves.
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Michael Kamen
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Quote:
. . .I’m not saying that Global Warming is not at all real, what I’m say is we did not have any thing to do with it the first time it happened and man is not the cause of now. If and when it does happen, it is simply part of the cycle of life, much like the seasons and we are not the cause of it and neither can we stop in.


Even if that is so it does not establish causality between a socialist conspiracy and the concern over global warming. You assume (A), and you assume (B), then you conclude that if (A) then (B). I understand that you choose to ignore the data and the scientific opinion that supports a threshold contribution of humans to the geologically recent escalation in global warming. This is reported to be exponential, and far above what happened 6000 years ago. You may ignore that, it is your right. You may choose to believe views associated perhaps with other special interests. This does not make these conclusions logical.
Michael Kamen
Michael Kamen
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On 2007-02-10 16:31, Tom Bartlett wrote:
I also conclude, that the fear of global catastrophe due to warming is no more justified, than the fear aliens from another solar system, attacking within the same time frame.


I have not heard reputable scientists quoted regarding imminent invasion from off the planet, so one can hardly equate global warming with that. Of course, you believe these scientists are all part of a worldwide conspiracy. Such beliefs rise to the level of a religious conviction, and do not seem to be better reasoned than the beliefs of other groups you have rightly pointed out may threaten us out of their own zealotry.
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Tom Bartlett
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The proponents of global warming, are the only people that get any media coverage and are only reporting the data that supports their position. The truth is that they are a very small number agree, compared the amount of scientists that disagree. The liberal or socialist controlled media, will not allow any other voice to be heard, and it is this, that is forming popular belief. Tell a lie long enough and loud enough, people will start to believe it.

It seems many "reputable scientists" have sold their reputation for government study grants. If there is no danger there is no money.
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evolve629
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Putting this debate in perspective, the Earth is around 4.5 billion years old and has constantly undergone numerous fluctuations from ice ages to warming periods. Are we to believe the climate is static and humans are responsible for damaging the world beyond repair in a century's time? There is no consensus on global warming.

I think global warming is more about the shifting climates and its consquences. Our prosperity is largely based upon our ability to prepare for the coming season. We grow wheat in the Midwest and citrus crops in California and pineapples in Hawaii. When the climate doesn't behave as expected, the local infrastructure isn't built to handle the change. Crops fail; buildings that never needed air conditioning get too hot; roads without snow plows are obstructed, for instance. Global warming doesn't necessarily mean heat; it means change. The question is are we ready for change?
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Michael Kamen
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On 2007-02-10 17:02, Tom Bartlett wrote:
The proponents of global warming, are the only people that get any media coverage and are only reporting the data that supports their position.


My observation is that prior to Gore's documentary coming out, that situation was reversed. It seemed as if most of the opinion was dismissive of the human impact on global warming. Following the documentary, those views have been noticeably silent, and the same media are reporting virtual scientific consensus on the issue. The same interests controlled the media before and after.
Michael Kamen
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On 2007-02-10 17:14, evolve629 wrote:
Putting this debate in perspective, the Earth is around 4.5 billion years old and has constantly undergone numerous fluctuations from ice ages to warming periods. Are we to believe the climate is static and humans are responsible for damaging the world beyond repair in a century's time? . . .

Hopefully not beyond repair, but given an exponentially increasing population, and technology that is brand new to the planet (over geological time), this does not seem like such a stretch to me. It seems like way more of a stretch to dismiss it as a socialist plot.

How about another conspiracy theory? Perhaps oil companies are in cahoots to distort the data supporting global warming so people will dismiss it more easily. "Lets get the people to believe that its a socialist plot, no make that a communist plot." Whatever floats your boat.

Experts will disagree. For my money, scientists are far more likely to sell out where they are employed by powerful corporate interests that are not even American, they are "multi-national" corporations now. How much money are the socialists paying them to lie?
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Jonathan Townsend
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Folks...

hot air here will not sway two billion folks in India and China who are eager to enjoy all the technology we have developed.

To have a sane discussion we need to get over our parochial views and look at our own actions and also real/hard data.

Here is my attempt to get us on a sane tact.

Our beautiful world is visited by LARGE shifts in climate due to natural causes. These include reversals in the magnetic field and also collisions with meteors and comets. I ask you... what would we do if such were on the way in the short term?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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It's magical thinking!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Jonathan Townsend
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On 2007-02-10 20:02, tommy wrote:
It's magical thinking!


what cause - effect relationship are you describing?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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The believe that man is causing global warming (effect) because of socialism (cause). Seems to bit of magical thinking to me.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Payne
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On 2007-02-10 19:56, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Our beautiful world is visited by LARGE shifts in climate due to natural causes. These include reversals in the magnetic field and also collisions with meteors and comets. I ask you... what would we do if such were on the way in the short term?


We'll simply cease to exist as a species. But then in the end what does it matter. Life on this planet is doomed anyway. Eventually we'll suffer as you say a meteor strike or our sun will use up it's fuel and fry us all in it's final death throes. So we either die out in a million years or a few decades or even tommorrow. But die out we will and there really is nothing we can do about it.
In the great galactic scheme of things it matters not one iota. The universe will either dissapate into oblivion or fall back in on itself to start the whole process over again. And no one anywhere will care, or even know we ever existed in the first place. For all our hopes, dreams and accomplishments we will make the same mark on the great scheme of things that our hand does in a bucket of water when it's removed.
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tommy
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So when your brakes wear out are you going to bother buying any new ones?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Michael Kamen
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On 2007-02-11 02:38, tommy wrote:
The believe that man is causing global warming (effect) because of socialism (cause). Seems to bit of magical thinking to me.


Tommy, I think Tom and others were expressing their belief that people who believe in socialism are responsible for spreading false (according to them) information, namely, that human activity and technology in recent years is contributing exponentially to global warming. They do not think this is true and they think socialists have basically exaggerated it. While I do not agree with them, what they are saying is not the same thing as suggesting that socialism is causing global warming. Either way, magical thinking is completely different. That would be where a person thinks their personal thought or action may cause an outside effect, where it is impossible to demonstrate more than a random association between their thought or action, and said effect.
Michael Kamen
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