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Mike Ching
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I hope it is OK to post this here, I am looking for a Bow Sawing in good condition (not necc to include table). If anyone has one please mssg me & send an image?

Aloha
Mike
jimhlou
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Post below on "Stage Illusions for sale or trade", put subject as WTB Bow Sawing

Jim
Bryan Drake Show
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I do a Cube-zag, as well as the obvious Metamorphosis. If we think hard any routine can be a Gospel routine.
thebeaky
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I've seen a few of the punishment for a wrong answer type presentations, and it concerns me a little. Is God a riddler type character, looking for us to get the wrong answer?
I get the point of the presentation, but it seems a bit contrived. Maybe better measuring someone up to the Ten commandments would be better. That would probably mean asking the volunteers permission before the show but I think it would be fairer to God's character.

I've written a script for a sub trunk presentation, and will probably post it once we have performed it, but I am curious, what is it people do with the sub trunk?
Mike Maturen
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Quote:
On 2007-02-16 00:47, Donald Dunphy wrote:
Hi JoyJoy -

I understand that you personally don't believe in this ficticious "sin chart". However, we know that many non-believers make up such a thing in their minds, to appease their own conscience, etc.

And that is why it is important to deal with it, because many non-belivers think that way about sin, and getting into heaven.

We agree.

- Donald


Be a little careful with this one. The largest Church in the world believes and teaches that some sins are worse than others. I am a member of that Church--the Roman Catholic Church. I have studied and found this teaching to be completely biblical.

They are called by the Church "mortal sins" (those which destroy our relationship with God and thus keep us from Heaven), and "venial sins" (those which only damage our relationship with God, but will not keep us from Heaven).

Think of the difference as being analagous to a felony vs. a misdemeanor.

I don't want to start a theological war on this forum...but you need to be aware of this teaching...it is held by most orthodox Christians.
Mike Maturen
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AUTHOR OF "A NEW DAWN--Weekly Wisdom From Everyday Life"

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MagicBus
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On behalf of the band and myself, I hoped we passed the audition. Get Back. On behalf of the minority 590 million Protestants (give or take a few million)worldwide, sola Scriptura. http://www.gty.org
thebeaky
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Back to the original question,

Here is one I have done with the sub trunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iyYUiGWo4g
Vlad_77
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I have been following this thread and I have a question. By the way I hope my number of posts both at large in the Café as well as the posts I have made here - admittedly long - should be evidence that I am no troll.

I have a SERIOUS problem with the use of guillotines even in "secular" magic. You can try to rationalize it with any presentation you like but the fact remain that the guillotine is one of the most horrific inventions by mankind and if anything, the guillotine's USE demonstrates our fallen nature from God. I am coming to this from an Eastern Orthodox perspective, i.e, an ancient perspective that has ALWAYS abjured violence. The guillotine was an instrument of capital punishment and guess what guts? MANY Christians - Catholic AND Protestants met their untimely end in the machinery of death. Read up on Robespierre.

There is nothing "funny" about a guillotine. I wonder if there was an electric chair illusion or a gas chamber illusion or a lethal injection illusion if they would be used by magicians. I imagine it would and it sickens me.

I simply do NOT believe not can I condone as a Christian the use of even a "trick" representation of any form of capital punishment. The message of the Living God is a message of love and the guillotine and its ilk are the antithesis of that message.

+In Christ,
Vlad
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On 2007-02-12 09:07, Joe Marotta wrote:
Donald, thanks for the kind words.

JoyJoy, I'm sorry that I misunderstood you. My German isn't too good either :smile: Actually I love the head chopper illusion and in America we do it with lots of comedy and humor. I've seen it performed like Donald explained, with funny bits and then using that relaxed moment to illustrate a Biblical truth, "we failed and deserve punishment, and someone took our punishment for us so that we could be set free." It doesn't have to kill the moment (no pun intended really) but just take advantage of the perfect illustration. Thank you for clarifying your post and again I apologize for misunderstanding.

One thing I must respectfully disagree with you is something you said in your postscript. The Bible tells us that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Psalm 111:10, Proverbs 9:10). We must show people that they have transgressed God's holy law, and that judgement day is coming. All of us will be judged because all of us have sinned against God. Understanding that they deserve punishment will soften the soil of their stony heart so that when you give them the good news of the salvation offered through Christ, it will be planted in their hearts and grow and fluorish.

The apostles and even Christ himself didn't preach love, joy, peace. They didn't convince people by saying, 'you have a god-shaped hole in your heart and God wants to fill it with love and peace and happiness". They showed people God's law and how they failed to keep it. They showed people that they were guilty before a righteous God and judgement day was coming for each of us. Then their eyes were opened and they said, "what must we do to be saved?"

THAT is showing people love, love people enough to tell them their true condition and where they are heading unless they repent and turn from their sins.

Your brother in Christ,
Joe


Wow....

And what Bible did you read and what Apostles are you talking about??

"He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes" (I John 2:10-11).

"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue [abide] ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain [abide] in you, and that your joy might be full" (John 15:7-11).

"whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls" (I Peter 1:8-9).

“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:12, 13).

Joe, Please look up T.U.L.I.P. and John Calvin? Then try to apply Calvin to the above verses - it simply cannot be done. The Sermon on the Mount (also known as The Beatitudes) are a beautiful expression of God's LOVE to His people.


My brothers and sisters, Our Lord Jesus Christ is both FULLY God and FULLY human. Jesus Christ is the Paragon; He laid down His life for all of us, and He defeated death by death.

+In Christ,
Vlad
MagicBus
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I went to Calvin College in Grand Rapids for a time- yikes- Calvin would have no problem with the Sermon on the Mount- and there is both a good theological and Biblical basis for what Joe stated in his post regarding the use of the law in evangelism. Of course God is love, no one would deny that. Many books have been written on this subject so I will not attempt to rehash their content briefly here in this magical forum other than refer to just several of the hundreds(?)of web sites that would echo Joe's thoughts: http://www.wayofthemaster.org http://www.wretchedradio.com http://www.gty.org http://www.moodychurch.org http://www.livingwaters.com So yep, it's Biblical.

Vlad, one must be careful in concluding your belief system or interpretation of the Bible is the only "Biblical" one- I happen to agree with Joe on this one- as do many other theologians past and present both here in the U.S. and worldwide. Ray Comfort has reprinted many of those quotes in multiple volumes from Spurgeon, Wesley, etc.. It's just an additional example of theological or denominational differences that kinda creeps outside of the magical scope of The Magic Café'. Your "simply cannot be done" statement is either a misunderstanding of either Calvin or how many other Bible scholars would read the Bible literally such as Dr. John MacArthur (who would also agree with Joe's post I am quite certain). Dr. MacArthur, just this month, preached a sermon from Mark finally completing his decades long series on preaching through the entire New Testiment verse by verse- which will result in his "New Testiment Commentaries" printed series being finally completed. I do do not know how many volumes it is up to now, it has be be something like 20 or more by now.

Anyway, although I appreciate your zeal and respect your viewpoint, I would not agree that you might have the unique handle on Biblical understanding and the rest of us just don't quite get it. Let's just agree to disagree if we could. Psalm 67! Roger
MagicBus
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Whoops, wish The Magic Café' had spell check, it is spelled either Old or New "Testament" of course, don't know what I was thinking... a senior moment I guess.
thebeaky
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I'm not a big fan of the "agree to disagree" line, just takes out room for debate with it mutual learning

I also have issues with the guillotine however I would not put it for the same reason, considering the symbol of our faith is another gruesome killing device upon which many Christians were killed alongside Jesus. I think it probably can be done right, but needs to be done carefully, and not simply dangling people over death for its own sake.

Paul's argument about a 'God shaped hole' comes up in Acts 17, (Statue to an unknown God).

The beatitudes is about Joy, (blessing/happiness).

When we see the Gospel as simply penal substitution we miss so very much. Penal substitution is a model to help us understand a part of the Gospel, it is in no way complete. Jesus brought freedom to captives, sight to the blind and proclaimed the year of the Lords favour,(Jubilee). He rescued people from demons and slavery to sin and yes took the punishment for them on the cross.

Part of the reason I wrote the sub trunk piece I did (see earlier post) was to emphasize Jesus' as a bringer of freedom, and victor over Satan. To show we do not need to be enslaved by them anymore.
MagicBus
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I guess I will defer out at this point- no need to restate theological and Biblically based arguments here in my view- but I do not believe anyone here has stated the Gospel is "simply penal substitution" or it was "complete" simply on this basis- this is a building up (and then subsequent tearing down) of a straw man argument not made by anyone that I am aware of. See any published work by Ray Comfort, Charles H. Spurgeon, John MacArthur (such as "The Gospel According to Jesus"), R.C. Sproul and countless others and I don't see any of these authors making a "simply penal argument" although they would agree with the importance of the law in convicting men of sin in the evangelistic process. As for the head chopper, I agree, always made my stomach churn, even when Andre' Kole did it.
MagicBus
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Now for a true head chopper story. A magician at Abbott's did a large head chopper routine two years ago or so- it was the standard one where the magician had a large head of lettuce there on a nearby stand which was to be cut through first. Then he "forgot" about chopping the lettuce first by "mistake"- and appeared to get distracted- and instead put the volunteer's head right into the large guillotine without doing the "lettuce demostration" first. The assistant who raised the blade appeared upset- tried to signal that the magician forgot to do the lettuce cut first. Since most the audience were magicians- we (including myself) started to "buzz" and we wondered if someone would have the guts to quickly yell out "STOP!- you forgot to cut the lettuce first!" But no one did- and instead we almost all had a collective heart attack. The trick worked as normal- the magician kinda winked at all of us out there and glanced over at the lettuce- and it was over. I am still mad I was not willing to yell out "You forgot the lettuce!" (I thought for sure we were about to witness a horrible accident)--- but no one did. Sad commentary on placing "confidence" in the performer and/or public embarrassment over the safety of a spectator. That goofy magician apparently had the last laugh on all of us- we all had been taken in by our own common knowledge of the routine normally looks like. You could hear throughout the auditorium people whispering: "HE FORGOT THE LETTUCE!" I have never been so nervous when the blade fell that time ever- I must have seen that trick done a blasted twenty times before- and I still don't like it- just like the nail/cup stab. That magician found a unique way to scare us all- to me that may have been funny for him that we magicians were all punked- but entertainment it's not. Hope I did not give anyone any ideas...
thebeaky
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But someone did say "The apostles and even Christ himself didn't preach love, joy, peace. They didn't convince people by saying, 'you have a god-shaped hole in your heart and God wants to fill it with love and peace and happiness". They showed people God's law and how they failed to keep it. They showed people that they were guilty before a righteous God and judgment day was coming for each of us. Then their eyes were opened and they said, "what must we do to be saved?" "

And that is not true. Yes they did show people how they failed to uphold the law and so their need for a savior, but they also preached love, joy and peace. (along with patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control).

Which is why I felt the need to address the issue.
Vlad_77
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MagicBus,

The sources you gave are all from the Protestant sola scriptura perspective. To an Eastern Orthodox Christian, sola scriptura is alien and in fact the very concept is non-scriptural. With all due respect, you state that I am implying that *I* said or inferred that I have the "handle" on the meaning. I never EVER claimed that. But, sola scriptura does. You must admit that it is delicious irony, no?

+In Christ,
Vlad

PS: I realize this section of the Café gets trolled. In THAT respect I understand the trepidation of some to answer a question or observation. That being said, there are relatively few of us here from the ancient Christian churches, i.e, Eastern Orthodox,Roman Catholic, Coptic, that post here. Oft times OUR voice is silenced and some members here, NOT understanding that there is more to Christianity than Protestantism have made it difficult for we of the Churches that LONG pre-date the Reformation to offer OUR Christian views. This is not the case always, but brothers and sisters and Christ, why is it that I must check out Moody, but I have had posts deleted where I have asked someone to checked out Sts. Polycarp, Athanasius, and other Church fathers?

Am I to understand that Moody and Calvin are cool but St. Athanasius and St. Gregory of Nyssa are unmentionable? Am I to understand that when I am told/suggested to check out a source I cannot answer in kind with a source that addresses the point?

Christ DID preach peace and love. I did the sola scriptura thing to show SOME of the versus, and I get BERATED for doing what others do here regularly and is accepted?

Tell you what, As a Christian, I will bow OUT of the Good News forum that way there are no further problems. And MagicBus, no need to thank me for my zeal my brother as we all should have it and I believe we all agree at least on that point. Millions of martyrs have died in the name of Christ and for me not to be zealous would besmirch their Eternal memory.

Vlad out.
GlenD
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I hope this is not the last we hear (read) from you here, Vlad. I find your posts and thoughts behind them very thought provoking and interesting (not in an at a distance laboratory way either). Please reconsider.
As far as the apparent disagreement we seem to be having here, I think there are elements of truth from both Joe and Vlad. My thinking is, concerning abiding in Christ, loving our brothers and other verses referenced, these things will not and cannot happen until someone has an encounter with God and receives the gift of salvation. That usually doesn't happen until some form of a brokenness occurs and acceptance of a need for a savior is realized. This is where, I believe, Joe is dead on. But it isn't all inclusive either it is more like the starting point. Abiding in Christ and growing in our love (which is flowing from God through us) for God and others is the next step and basically the challenge for how we should live out the rest of our days. I also do not think it an error to talk about a search for fulfilment that always ends in futility, with what the world has to offer. I think there is a lot of truth in the fact that we as human beings are seeking that "something" that will give us lasting happiness, etc. But many do not realize it is an actual spiritual need that God created us with.
These are just some of my thoughts from an unschooled and unqualified, recipient of Gods grace...

Glen
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
Dan Bernier
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Vlad, the answer is very simple. The Gospel magic forum is not to be used by someone to teach their theology, or doctrine because they feel it`s not represented enough here. Many of us Protestants share different doctrine, but somehow we manage to put those differences aside most of the time because we are all interrested in Gospel magic.

You`ve made it clear that you have no interrest in Gospel magic, nor do you perform it. None of your posts have been helpful in that regards. I don`t mean that as an insult, as I`m sure you`ll agree that your intent here isn`t to learn or give advice on Gospel magic, or even magic for that matter. Smile

I believe you have been shown quite a bit of patience, kindness, and respect considering your only reasoning or intent of posting here has nothing to do with an interrest in Gospel Magic.

There was church long before their was even the Catholic, or Orthodox Church. Just because Martin Luther exposed the heresies of the Catholic Church doesn`t mean the Catholic Church is the only church to have been poisoned with lies. Nor does it make it the oldest. Just maybe Martin Luther took the oldest out of the Catholic Church, and helped restore the Church closer back to where it should be? Even the Catholic Church has recognized some of the theses Martin raised, and I believe the Orthodox have too.

We are better off when we don't discuss topics like speaking in tongues, infant baptisism, sprinkle, splash, or dunk when it comes to being baptized, etc. I can name a list of things but we are not really here for that. It happens on occasions, and on occasions it's allowed to go on, but other times it gets nipped quickly in the butt.

I`ll tell you one thing I know is very Biblical. Jesus Christ is coming back for His broken Church. When He comes back He will restore us to His glory. Any church that claims to be the perfect church is a liar.

Of course the sources MagicBus gave you were Protestant sola scriptura perspective! What else would you expect? Smile

First I'd like to quote somthing you posted, and then with the answer to your question.

"relatively few of us here from the ancient Christian churches, i.e, Eastern Orthodox,Roman Catholic, Coptic, that post here. Oft times OUR voice is silenced and some members here, NOT understanding that there is more to Christianity than Protestantism have made it difficult for we of the Churches that LONG pre-date the Reformation to offer OUR Christian views."

You are in the wrong forum. This a forum to discuss Gospel magic, not for you to teach Catholic, or Orthodox theology. Especially ones that you very well know directly conflict with most of ours.

If you look at Christianity having so many labels, then I'm afraid you are probally still looking at it from the outside. I tend to look at it as a broken family that the return of our Lord will heal and restore.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
Vlad_77
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Dan,

This is my final post here because you deserve an answer. Joe CLEARLY stated that Christ and His Apostles did NOT preach peace and love - and THAT is patently wrong. As a CHRISTIAN - I answered.

Finally, the church that "existed" before as you say the "Orthodox and Catholic" Churches STILL exists. But, there seems to be a denial of history by many. A pity.

As for looking Christianity from the outside, I find that an insult, brother, and furthermore a blatant denial on YOUR part of the disarray of certain aspects of Western thought.

So Dan, should Steve rename this subforum "The PROTESTANT Good News?" I have NEVER tried to convert nor proseletyze. Ever. In fact the Orthodox Church does not engage in such.

Joe's statement deserved an answer. What IS the state of Gospel magic when someone makes a statement such as that????

My prayers to all and no ill feelings. Only sadness in that you have falsely accused me of trying to further an agenda which does not exist. Farewell.

+In Christ,
Vlad

PS: I will accept no PMs. The matter is closed as I will not darken this subforum anymore.
MagicBus
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I think in all honesty, I need to report that I have "switched" doctrinal churches a half dozen times in my life: from Christian Reformed, to Reformed Baptist, to an IFCA member indepedent church, to a non-denominational church, and am now currently a member or a Wesleyan congregation. Boy oh boy am I ever confused! So ones theological position sure can change from time to time... at least it does in my case. So it sure does not bother me/is just fine to have conversations with all sorts of folks using the same inspired Bible. Carry on all!
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