So now you are proclaiming that the ancient Church is the one with heresy? I say that it is Martin Luther that taught heresy. So which of is correct? I'm afraid that we of the ancient Church have history on our side, my brother.

Name a Church that existed before the Catholic Church. You can't. All other Churches are branches of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (which, of course, includes the Eastern Orthodox).



I don't speak for Vlad, but I, for one, prefer that people use biblical concepts. Sola Scriptura is NOT Scriptural. Period. It is a teaching that was unheard of until Luther "reformed" the Church...which included wrenching 7 books from the Bible. He wanted to remove Revelation (Tim LaHaye thanks God...and his wallet...that Luther was unsuccessful in this), and the book of James.

Rather judgemental, don't you think? So you are now the judge and jury of who is "in the Church" and who isn't?

Ratger UN-scriptural, I would think.

I didn't say no such thing, and this is exactly why this kind of discussion is not allowed. It sure doesn't take long for someone to start putting down the Protestants, and yes, I will even admit that most people who come here to put down the Protestant church are Catholics. No one is putting down the Catholic church. If you are not aware that there are heresies in every church, and actually believe that the catholic church is the only true church, which is what I hear a lot of, then I disagree with you, but don't put words into m y mouth, or be quick to anger and judgement.


Here is my defense to your profound accusations. "Just because Martin Luther exposed the heresies of the Catholic Church doesn`t mean the Catholic Church is the only church to have been poisoned with lies. Nor does it make it the oldest."

I meant no insult by last post, but boy are you quick to do it.

Vlad has no interrest in Gos[pel magic, but feels a need to represent his beliefs where the majority do not share his beliefs. We have been extremely kind to Vlad. However, one confrontation and Vlad flips out and says he's never posting here again.

I have had many posts removed, but I don't go threatning that I'm never going to post here ever again.

After Christ was resurrected the first church was started. The Catholic Church is the first organized religion. It is not the first church, and if you knew what church meant you would agree with me.

Anyhow, I will explain that I was not accusing Vlad on being on the outside of Christianity, it's his observation of it I was saying was from the outside. He seeing Christianity with a bunch of labels, and feels a need to let us know that there is more to Christianity than Protestants.

I personally have enjoyed reading Vlad's post, but in all honesty they have nothing to do with Gospel Magic. He himself said to us that he has no interrest in Gospel Magic.

Anyhoot, I'm having too much of a great day to allow another person with far out accusations and anger to upset me this morning.

Dan

Let's see. You say you meant no insult. Yet you say that the Catholic Church was in heresy. That is a patent insult to any member of the Catholic faith...INCLUDING the very FOUNDER of Gospel Magic, Fr. John Bosco (remember...we've had THIS discussion before!).

If you didn't mean to say that Vlad, himself, was outside of Christianity, you sure made it sound like it.

You claim no ill will, yet when you posted about the Catholic Church, you used the words "heresy" "poison" and "lies".


Hmmmm.


As to the "true" meaning of Church, that's exactly why I love the Catholic Church...it looks at the FULLNESS of meaning, not just the surface. Like the Scriptures, words have several layers of meaning...and they ALL need to be peeled away in order to understand Truth.

On the surface, "church" means the people...the Body of Christ. But we also know from Scripture, the Christ organized an ORGANIZED Church, with an Apostle as its head. The Apostles then appointed Bishops and Priests and Deacons. IT'S ALL IN SCRIPTURE.

I will not entertain the folly of this argument any longer. I will watch this forum and respond to any lies, falsehoods, accusations, etc. But my ministry is not to lead Protestants back to the fullness of the Faith...many thousands each year are doing that themselves.

I think Dan's point was the fact that all other churches (including the catholic church) have had or still do have errors within them. Instead of the word error, he used the terms heresy, poison and lies but still with regards to all the other churches as well as the catholic church (if I understand him correctly). I would rather discover truths about God through the scriptures "IT'S ALL IN SCRIPTURE" than holding fast to traditions of men. I think Jesus confronted the experts of His day concerning similar issues. There is much to learn and appreciate from those that devote their lives to the study of God's word, not taking anything away from the teachers among us, etc but I am thankful to have The Bible to read for myself. I think we tend to make things too complicated, there really isn't a cookie cutter appraoch. Especially when looking at "the church" on a global scale. God loves us, we know this or discover this and love Him back. Do we? Or do we ignore Him and live selfish independant lives, which ultimately places us apart from Him for eternity.

I really don't think I have any "stage illusions". I have many effects that play from the stage but do not own any of those wonderful magical boxes that do mind boggling things.

Glen

Glen...Scripture itself is not the end. Scripture MUST be interpreted. There MUST be an authority for that interpretation. We see where "individual interpretation has gotten us...33,000+ denominations.

It was the AUTHORITY of the Catholic Church tat decided what books were inspired...that is historical fact. So why is her authority on the interpretation of the same not good enough?

There is an old adage...and it holds true: The Scriptures did not give us the Church...the Church gave us the Scriptures.

The bible itself tells us that it is THE CHURCH that is the pillar of Truth.


I am working on some stage illusions...trying to build a full-length show. However, my show will not be an outright "gospel show", which is, in my opinion, too limiting as to audience. Rather, I will produce a clean, family-friendly show that anyone would be proud to bring their kids too.

God created His church and He gave us the Scriptures. There is God and then there are believers, all believers everywhere that claim the name of Jesus. Those that believe and have received salvation through Christ are His church. "The church" is not supposed to be a third entity or some kind of mysterious filter.

Good luck with your show. I plan on reporting on my experiences in the parks a little later on in the year. I have been invited back for the third year in a row to an event in San Pedro called Light At The Lighthouse that will occur in September. I will be getting ready for that also. Take care.

Glen

Thanks Glen. You are precisely right. There are errors in every church. Some say heresies, some say errors. Some say corrections, some say rebuke.

There are many different denominations represented here yet, we seem to be able to find the common ground between us without feeling like one denomination is not represented enough here. In fact, I know I am not even aware of what denominations most here are. It doesn't matter to me what denomination anyone here belongs to. We are all the same in the eyes of God. God doesn't play favoritism.

I've been accussed twice of the same thing from the same person. You'd think the only one who should be upset is me. (lol)

I'm just glad that most of us here can find common ground for the interrest of Gospel magic.

I just finished watching a bio on Michelangelo. Very interresting story considering he was around near the reformation.

See, that's what I mean about labels? Just remember Mike, you are taking a stab at others faiths, no one has taken a stab at the Catholic church. Just a little push is all it takes to get you all worked up and ready to tell all us Protestants that we are wrong, and that the Catholic church is this, and the Catholic church is that.

Hmmm. This wasn't a stab Dan (I didn't say you were in heresy, at least!). I simply stated that I am not here to convert you...and also stated the simple fact that many thousands of Protestants are finding their way into the ancient Church without us doing any real "evangelizing".

It would be nice to get back to the topic of stage illusions in gospel shows.

- Donald

Thanks Donald

Two other stage illusions I haven't seen mentioned on this thread are the Cross Illusion (built by Fairchild Magic) and the Ring Illusion (sold by Hank Lee's Magic Factory).

I think that Duane Laflin performs the Cross Illusion, and that David and Teesha Laflin perform the Ring Illusion.

One of these illusions can use a volunteer from the audience, while the other illusion uses your assistant.

Do gospel performers use those illusions to illustrate how we are set free from the bondage of sin (through a relationship with Christ), or for some other message?

I don't have these 2 illusions, but they are illusions I've considered adding.

- Donald

P.S. In my 30 minute gospel show, it's mostly magic, with no stage illusions. In my 45 minute gospel show, it's mostly magic with one stage illusion at the end of the show. In my 60 minute show, it's mostly magic with two stage illusions in the show (one in the middle, and one at the end of the show).

Personally I love the Cross Illusion by Joe Fairchild, but admittedly, I only use this for big and special shows as is the case with most of my bigger pieces.

I am glad the thread returned to the subject of illusions. I have observed over the past that many of the posts here can get quite argumentative and yes, even "preachy".

I hope we can use our posts to illustrate how each and every one of us can learn to use our magic, puppets, etc. to the glory of God rather than engaging in long theological arguments. Now don't misunderstand me, there is indeed a time and place for such discussion, and these are indeed important points, but it is probably best not to engage in them here.

I have only see the Cross Illusion once...and it was in a not-so-well performed YouTube Video. It looks like it has the potential to be a very powerful illusion...but I'd like to see a better version or two of it before I decided.

Donald...which Ring Illusion are you talking about?

Never mind...followed the link you provided for the Ring Illusion...DUH!

Looks like it has great potential. I would even consider this for my secular show instead of the Sub Trunk. Are there any YouTube videos of it that you are aware of? I'd like to see real world use first.

Duane Laflin performed the Fairchild Cross Illusion for those at the ADVANCE conference in 2009. Joe was also a vendor there, and I agree his quality is fantastic. My response to the performance, and others in my immediate area, was that the routine was very good, but the climax was a bit flat. The props description that the ropes "fly off" is a bit hyped. Perhaps it seemed lacking because the cross is sooo large/dramatic and obviously Duane is a master at weaving the evangelical storyline around it. I would like to see the ring illusion real world as well, Mike. Alas, both items are far above my budget, but I can dream, can't I .

PS: Barry Mitchell confided to us during the conference one of Duane's suggestions to him was to think big. I think this is a very valid topic for those interested in adding something larger to a gospel performance. Thanks for bringing it back on point.

To watch the Ring Illusion being performed, watch the "10 Minute Promotional Video" on David and Teesha Laflin's website:

http://www.davidandteesha.com/media/video-gallery/

I assume this is the same model that is sold on Hank Lee's Magic Factory website. I think there might be more that one builder of this illusion, according to other threads on The Magic Café.

- Donald

The Web would be a great illusion and it comes in one case and will travel easily. You certainly could use it for a gospel presentation how the enemy will try to hold you back, or differnt things that keep you from going forward for Christ...fear, lack of faith, intimidation and so forth. Here's the link to it...I use to have one and it's one slick illusion.

http://www.dream-illusions.com/new-illus......ory_id=1

Thanks for posting this Donald!

The Pastor in me wants to discuss some of the theological implications that have been made in this thread.

However, the magician in me is glad this thread got back on topic!

Personally, I enjoyed watching "thebeaky's" Sub Trunk routine. As a guy who is JUST getting into Gospel magic (the magic part, not the Gospel part!), I love these larger Stage Illusions and look forward to practicing and getting some experience behind me so that I can work my way up to Illusions like these!

I also enjoyed the discussion from both sides of the Guillotine routine. I would have to agree with the side that performs these types of illusions. But as I'm sure you know and don't need me to tell you, these performances obviously need to be prayed about so that God is the one bringing the message, and not us. But as "gruesome" as this illusion seems, that shouldn't be a reason not to do them. After all, Scripture's most powerful truth, the basis for our faith - the Crucifixion - is incredibly gruesome.

My take on it is - seek God and examine yourself honestly (Duh, right?) If you are right with God, he will show you if he wants you to stop performing this illusion. It's not up to Vlad or others to tell you to stop, since we are not trying to convince Vlad (and others) that they should START using the Guillotine illusion.

There. I am a tad long-winded. I guess that's the Pastor in me again