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lint
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Hi Friends,
Over the past few months, I have been putting together my own Cups & Balls biblio/videography list for collecting purposes. Now that my list has peaked over 250 separate entries, I thought I would share my fruits with everyone here, since I have learned so much from you all. I hope it helps you build your collection and know more about what is out there in regards to our beloved Cups & Balls.

My criteria for adding something to the list was simple. It needed to contain a routine, move, or at least patter ideas specific to the Cups & Balls.

My other goal for this list is for other people to contribute to what I may be missing here. The past month hasn't turned up anything new for me to add to the list with the resources available to me. I'm sure others have resources they could check. If any of you have anything to contribute, feel free to add it to the list (it is an Excel file) and send it to me (PM me for my email address). Once I add a significant amount of new items, I'll re-release the revised list to this board.

You will notice two columns that I have not had time to research yet, publisher and release date. If anyone has this info handy and can fill in what they have time to, that would be great too.

Anyhow, thanks, everyone, and I hope you find this list useful.

-todd

Click here to view/download attached file.
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
fortasse
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Todd:

You are to be commended. This compilation is very useful.
Thanks!

Fortasse
magicbern
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Mark Leveridge hasn't published anything to do with Cups and Balls. He had a Chop Cup Routine (discontinued), and the only Master Routine that has any resemblance to Cups and Balls is Wild Dice (but different in materials used - dice and matchboxes - and routine - more like 3 Shell Game).
lint
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Hi magicbern,
I think I included 'Master Routines' because of the "WILD DICE - A fabulous table top routine which combines elements of the Cups and Balls with the Walnut Shell And Pea Game."

I assumed some C&Bs handling could be gathered from it. Reading more about it, I think I may remove it in the next revision. Thanks for pointing it out!

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Bill Palmer
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Todd:

Don't remove it. Although Bern may not think so, the Shell Game and the Cups and Balls are really part of the same lineage. And it doesn't matter whether it is performed with cups, shells or matchboxes, it's part of the chain of heritage of the trick.

Also, the chop cup is part of the Cups and Balls.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
magicbern
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Todd, I understand the link and, in some ways, there are some Cups and Balls elements - just like chop cup has! It's just to me, it seems more like the 3 Shell Game!

However, upon taking out my original copy of this trick and reading Mark's description, here's an extract..."Wild Dice begins as a kind of shell and pea trick...then it progresses to a kind of cups and balls effect in which the dice vanishes, jumps and penetrates the matchbox drawers..."

So I think you're safe including it as a form of Cups and Balls. However, I don't think any Cups and Balls handlings can be learnt from it and applied to any other type of 'cup' or 'ball'.
Bill Palmer
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If you are doing a "complete" bibliography of Cups and Balls material, ALL references to the Cups and Balls should be included.

It is absolutely undeniable to anyone who has studied the history of the Cups and Calls seriously that the Cups and Balls and the Three Shell Game are very closely interrelated, so much so that one of the most highly touted modern "Cups and Balls" routines is actually more of a Three Shell Game than anything else.

I won't mention it by name, because if you haven't figured this out, you don't really need to know.

My own experiments with acetabula have shown me that there must have been early elements of the Shell Game in the presentations that were done with them.

Todd:

Excellent work on the bibliography.

Contact me via my e-mail address for some more information.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
lint
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Thank you, everyone, for your compliments and input. I have added a few new entries, and corrected a few as well. It did not occur to me to add chop cup literature, due to its number of moves (obviously) relying on the gimmick. Actually, since I am not a student of the chop cup, I could be wrong on that. I think I will start collecting chop cup routines and adding them to the list. However, I will add them to their own section. The list, as it stands now, is incredibly rough. Like I mentioned above, I need to organize the entries into 'types' (possibly adding the same title to multiple types), add publisher info, dates, etc. Perhaps I should start collecting Three Shell Game info, as well.

All in time! Smile Keep sending those additions and corrections if you have the time and would like to help.

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Bill Palmer
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Maybe while it is still relatively short, you should go into standard bibliography form. At some point, you will probably want to do this anyway. It will be much easier to do now than further down the road. I know this, because I just finished creating a database of the Cups and Balls Museum. There are more than 700 items catalogued. This doesn't even include balls and wands, just cups and directly related items.

I wish I'd started this when I only had about 100 sets.

It took me about two weeks. I figured I'd better do it before I forgot important facts about certain sets. I discovered I needed photos of several items.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Joe Howard
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Thanks for sharing your research, Todd!

A couple of omissions come to mind:

Ken Brooke, The Unique Years
John Carney, Book of Secrets

Joe H
lint
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Thanks, Joe! I can't seem to find indexes for either of the books, so I'll just have to trust you that they both contain some kind of C&B material. Smile


Quote:
On 2007-02-19 01:14, Bill Palmer wrote:
Maybe while it is still relatively short, you should go into standard bibliography form.


I've been debating this. It is very easy for me right now to add things to an Excel list and have it do things like auto-alphabetize them, move them around, etc. I know I "need" to get them in a proper MLA biblio format at some point, just not sure the best way to do it and still retain the ease of a spreadsheet! At the very least, the spreadsheet needs to contain all the info required for a proper bibliography listing. And then there is a ton of bibliography software I ran across last night for building biblio-lists. Ack!

Quote:
I know this, because I just finished creating a database of the Cups and Balls Museum. There are more than 700 items catalogued. This doesn't even include balls and wands, just cups and directly related items.

It took me about two weeks. I figured I'd better do it before I forgot important facts about certain sets. I discovered I needed photos of several items.



Is this for insurance purposes, or book research purposes? Smile

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
RiffRaff
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How about Sean Connery?
He performed a C&B/Shell Game mix in "Time Travellers".
Joe Howard
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Hi Todd,

John Carney's Routine is in The Book of Secrets, Lesson 7 (Muscade Magic, pages 120-135).

Ken Brooke's is in The Unique Years (page 209-215). It is then followed by a couple of chop cup routines, but not the same one as in the Ken Brooke Series.

Also, The Magic of Faucett Ross (pages 135-141).

Joe H
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2007-02-19 12:07, lint wrote:
Is this for insurance purposes, or book research purposes? Smile

-todd


It's actually for several reasons. One is so I can have a searchable database on the Cups and Balls Museum website. Another will have to do with an announcement that I will be making sometime in the near future.

I also needed to make sure that I had photos of everything that is in the Museum. I had a few cups that were not listed, as well as several that I am lacking photos of.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
lint
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Joe, thanks for the additional info. I added it to the list. Properly (MLA) formatted list is in the works and coming along nicely. If anyone happens to have the Ramsay Cups and Balls booklet (includes a bibliography) or a complete potters index and would like to help in the future, please contact me. Thanks!

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Tom G
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Wow, a lot of work, Todd. Might want to add the Mike Rogers, Stevens tape. Seems to be one of the few not moved to DVD, at least yet.

Tom
Richard Evans
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That's a nice start, Todd. I'd strongly recommend that you take up Bill's suggestion of converting these references to a standardised format in a database. Not only will this make it easier to cross-reference, but it will also mean that it's easier to search for routines by author and/or creator.

For example, you currently have "The Royal Touch" listed twice: once under Cellini and once more under McFalls (who wrote the book). Similarly, you have the Dan Fleshman books listed under Fleshman and also under John Mendoza (who wrote the books). To be accurate, you should record the reference under the author's name. However, it quickly becomes obvious that the creator of the routine is equally important. A database would help you cross-reference these much more quickly.

I'd also suggest that you keep separate lists of printed references and DVDs/videos.

I'll tell you something interesting about one of your references: the routine called "Indian Cups and Balls, Nu Style", by Solyl Kundu in his "Magic of Merriment" booklet, is in fact a Cups and Balls-themed card trick with pictures of the Cups and Balls printed onto the cards.


Richard
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
lint
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Hi Richard,
Thank you for the additional information. That is the exact kind of input I (and the list) is benefiting from. I will correct the entries you noted. And actually, I debated over adding the "Nu Style" entry long ago when I originally ran across it. I am still not sure if it belongs, since it is not dealing with actual cups. I do not own "Magic of Merriment", so I can not even tell if the patter would be enough (read: useful to C&B workers) to keep it in the list.

On the revised list I am working on in my spare time, I have tried to only list the author of the books in accordance with the standard bibliography style (Author. Title of Book. City of Publication: Publisher, Year.), but I agree it can get tricky with some of the entries. I think I will get the bare bones list together in proper format, and then decide on the next step.

Thank you all for your input and help,
todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Richard Evans
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Hi Todd - you're welcome.

I don't think the Kundu routine is really of much use in terms of performing the Cups and Balls, but it's an interesting addition to the bibliography.

Richard
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
Bill Palmer
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At some point, it is necessary to make a value judgment on precisely what goes into anything that has to do with the Cups and Balls. You can choose to make it exclusive, that is, so that only material that directly references the Cups and Balls as performed with three-cup sets appears in the list. But then you will have to exclude the Tommy Wonder routine and other similar two-cup routines.

You can choose to reference only two- and three-cup routines, but then you must eliminate all of the one-cup routines, such as the Crandall routine in Tarbell.

You can choose to include everything.

These choices are up to you. No matter what you do, it is both right and wrong. Some would say that including the Three Shell Game in a work on Cups and Balls is wrong because the techniques are not the same, but the common ancestry of the tricks is difficult to deny.

I'll PM you with an observation about this last thing that I don't think needs to be relatively public knowledge yet.

Let me just say that the techniques of the Shell Game are sometimes still used in the Cups and Balls.

Whatever you do is right for you. That's what counts in the long run.

Thanks for making this contribution to the Cups and Balls.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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