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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Community Cups & Balls Biblio/Videography (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Ron Giesecke
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What do I use to view this file?
wildarr
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The file contained in the zip archive is an Excel Spreadsheet. If you don't have Microsoft Office installed, you can download a free viewer from Microsoft.
lint
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Hi Ron,
First you unzip it with a compression program like WinZip. Then, you open the file inside with Microsoft Excel.

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
lint
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Updated file attached.

50+ new entries. LOTS of correction to existing entries. Quite a few old VHS tapes added, as well as magazine articles. Still working on a proper MLA formatted list, which will contain lots of additional information on each entry.

Keep the additions and corrections coming, I really appreciate them.

-todd

Click here to view/download attached file.
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
fortasse
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Great work, Todd. It's really coming along so very nicely.

A few possible additions for your consideration:

1. Bob Read's "The Cups & Balls in 19th Century Graphic Art" (profusely illustrated paper presented to the IBM British Ring, 1984)

2. I notice you have Guyot included. Perhaps you should therefore add Guyot's predecessor, Jacques Ozanam, whose work "Recreations Mathematiques" contains one of the earliest expositions of the C&B (deleted, however, from some the later editions and from the English translation by Hutton).

3. Henri Decremps's "La Magie Blanche Devoile" should also be included. Decremps was also the author of what later became known as "Ponsin on Conjuring" (already on your list), Prof. Jerome Sharp being one of the pseudonyms for Decremps.

4. I didn't see "Book of Modern Conjuring" by Prof. R. Kunard on your list, but I may have missed it.

5. "Secret Out" (1859) by (Cremer? Frikell? H.L Williams?) should definitely be included, as well.

6. Finally (for now), reaching way back into time, you may want to include one of the very earliest descriptions of a C&B performance, via a letter from Alciphron: "Alciphron Literally And Completely Translated From The Greek" (Book III, Letter XX), Athenian Society (1898).

Keep up the great work!

Fortasse
lint
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Fortasse, thanks so much for the references. I have 1 or 2 you suggested on the list already, and will be investigating and adding the others.

Thanks!
-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
fortasse
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Lint :

Re-reading my last message, I see that I made a mistake under para. 3. The reference to Decremps and his work is indeed correct but he had nothing to do with Ponsin on Conjuring. Professor Jerome Sharp was indeed a nom de plume for Decremps but he had nothing to do with the Sharp who (very much later) edited Ponsin on Conjuring. Unfortunately, these two different Sharps got confused in my notes - hence the mistake in para.3, for which I do apologize.

Fortasse
Bill Palmer
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Sharp did not edit Ponsin on Conjuring. Sharpe did.

I have posted a lengthy piece on the authorship of The Secret Out here:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=135#0
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Payne
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Great work! Keep it up.

Two books in my collection not on your list

Legerdemain, or Sleight of Hand. A facsimile reproduction with plates from the third edition of the Encyclopedia Britanica (1797) By David Meyer 1986 Meyerbooks

and

The Oldest Deception. Cups and Balls in the art of the 15th and 16th Centuries by Kurt Volkman 1956 Carl W. Jones
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
fortasse
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Lint :

You should also definitely add the detailed historical treatment of C&B by the well-known magic writer, Henry R. Evans : "Adventures in Magic" , Ch. VI - "The Oldest Sleight-of-Hand Trick" (see The Sphinx, August 1919). This same piece quotes extensively from an earlier C&B treatise by Arthur Watson in the Reliquary which I have been trying to track down. Will let you know what I come up with.

Fortasse
Richard Evans
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Quote:
On 2007-03-04 20:06, fortasse wrote:
A few possible additions for your consideration:

1. Bob Read's "The Cups & Balls in 19th Century Graphic Art" (profusely illustrated paper presented to the IBM British Ring, 1984)

...


This treatise was updated in 1990 and entitled 'The Cups & Balls in 19th Century Graphic Art:: Second Spasm'.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
lint
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Was this bob read paper for sale or given away at a lecture? Was it part of his unpublished book or a separate work?

Thank you all for your comments and additions. It will pay off for us all in the end.

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Bill Palmer
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This was a preliminary look at his unpublished book. It is very hard to find a copy. A photocopy sold for $600 a few months ago.

I'll send you a huge bibliography that is not in Ask Alexander. It comes from a German work that is difficult to obtain in this country.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
lint
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Re: Bob Read.
I have not decided yet if I should add his unpublished book or articles on cups & balls art. What are your thoughts? If we get into art, we are then straying from the (admittedly mine) original intentions of the bibliography to only include items that discuss routines, moves, patter, equipment, etc. I would be the first to cry "heresy" at not including the wonderful contributions from Mr. Read, but this then opens up what else I should include? Nearly every magic book that even touches on the history of the art has some comments about the cups (usually about the dreaded Egyptian wall...sigh). Should I include every book that even mentions the cups (a highly impossible task)? What about performance only videos?

Where should the line be drawn?

I have already decided I will work on a second (and perhaps third) bibliography on chop cups, three shell and all the other routines that use variations of cup & ball moves (ie: ball & cone). Thank God the Chop Cup has only been around since the 1950s! The initial biblio/videography will included 3-cup, 2-cup, 1-cup (no chop), combo-cup, and any other variation not including a single chop cup or any of the other variations listed above. These are obviously just rough guidelines that I am using at the moment and subject to change.

The proper MLA formatted bibliography is still in its infancy with only about 150 added entries from the excel list (many missing one bit of info or another) so any and all suggestions and ideas are welcome. As Bill has mentioned before any decision will be right and wrong, but I would like to come up with the "most" right way to go about putting this together Smile

thanks!

-todd

Posted: Mar 10, 2007 12:30pm
Bill, thanks!

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Richard Evans
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Quote:
On 2007-03-10 11:37, Bill Palmer wrote:
I'll send you a huge bibliography that is not in Ask Alexander. It comes from a German work that is difficult to obtain in this country.


Which one's that, Bill? Joro's book?
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
Bill Palmer
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Yes. It will save Todd a lot of time. I think I have it on disc already. I have permission from Sic Verlag to translate and publish it.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Richard Evans
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Good idea - Joro's book is an excellent source of c&b references. It would be great to have an English translation of the whole text Smile
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
lint
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That is fantastic news Bill. Now if someone could just get permission from Mayette to translate and publish Alma's Le Jeu Des Gobelets I would be a happy man! They have ignored my english emails Smile

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Bill Palmer
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I wish I could find a copy of that one.

BTW, I just did some interesting research on The Secret Out. Speaking to a very well-known bookman, his conclusions are the same as mine -- that Frikell had NOTHING to do with the book, and Cremer was a plagiarist.

There are so many errors in Toole Stott, that it is almost embarrassing to use them as a resource. There are also errors in the LOC listings. I'll post the information to that other thread in the historical section.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
lint
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Bill as I'm sure you know Alma's book is available from here:

http://www.circomagicobrocante.oxatis.co......D=115629

for a pricey (for me anyhow) sum.

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
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