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fortasse
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Todd:

Speaking of translations, I recently commissioned a professional translation (French-to-English) of that part of the 1799 edition of Guyot's Recreations Mathematiques et Physiques which deals with Cups and balls (and very extensively at that). I should have it completed within the next two weeks. As far as I am aware, there has never been an official translation of this particular work into English although it did find its way (in English) into many of the leading works of the latter half of the 19th century, including the works of Decremps, Robert-Houdin (transl.Hoffman) and Hoffman. The translation is costing me a pretty penny but once it's done I'll be happy to provide a copy of the translation to you and to any other members of the forum who may be interested - free of charge.

Fortasse
lint
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Fortasse, what a fantastic offer. thank you.

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
fortasse
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Quote:
On 2007-03-10 14:11, Bill Palmer wrote:
I wish I could find a copy of that one.

BTW, I just did some interesting research on The Secret Out. Speaking to a very well-known bookman, his conclusions are the same as mine -- that Frikell had NOTHING to do with the book, and Cremer was a plagiarist.

There are so many errors in Toole Stott, that it is almost embarrassing to use them as a resource. There are also errors in the LOC listings. I'll post the information to that other thread in the historical section.


In your research paper you state that "Frikell's contributions to these books was minimal if any at all". But now you say (as indeed you said previously) that "Frikell had NOTHING to do with the book" . It can't be both. Which is it?

Incidentally, you relied upon Toole-Stott as your ONLY source when you started this argument with me over the authorship of "Secret Out" a week or so ago. But now I see you that don't think very much of Toole-Stott after all.

On a separate point, in your paper you confess to some difficulty in using the search engine ("Ask Alexander") on the Conjuring Arts website to good effect. It does take some getting used to and you have to be a little creative in your choice of words and even more so in using the "search within these results" feature. But once you get through this by trial and error and a little linguistic ingenuity a veritable treasure trove of material on cups and balls will reveal itself to you. I have been able to access a very considerable number of complete C&B routines, treatises, etc. using the "Ask Alexander" search engine. On many an occasion, I have found it so much more convenient to use this search engine than having to wade though the huge number of magazines and books that I have in my library of magic. Inevitably, at some point, these magazines and books have to be consulted but search engines like "Ask Alexander", when properly understood and creatively utilized, can be of enormous help to any research exercise on cups and balls. No, it's not the be-all-and-end-all by any means but it certainly can be a wonderful electronic supplement to "hard-copy" research resources.

Fortasse
lint
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Hey guys lets leave the "the secret out" arguments out of this thread. It would be a shame to have this one locked too.

Fortasse thanks for your info on 'ask alexander'. I wish they offered membership for a month or two at a time (like the online GENII). I would prefer that over paying a whole year and only needing a few weeks to gather the info I needed. Plus I don't like the restriction levels. I think everyone who is a member should have access to the whole archive for research. At some point I'm sure I will need to plunk down the cash to access it though...

-todd

Quote:
2. I notice you have Guyot included. Perhaps you should therefore add Guyot's predecessor, Jacques Ozanam, whose work "Recreations Mathematiques" contains one of the earliest expositions of the C&B.


The article here: http://logica.rug.ac.be/albrecht/thesis/Etten-intro.pdf seems to point to Jean Leurechon as the author of this work. Does anyone have any additional input on that?

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Bill Palmer
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This is a different book. The Recreations Mathematiques that "Laurechon" wrote was published in 1624. Ozanam's Recreations Mathematiques was published in 1694.

There have been many books called Recreations Mathematiques. Some of these have sections on physics, chemistry and magic. Others do not.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
lint
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Ahh thank you bill!

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Richard Evans
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Heeffer's thesis was published in almost identical form in last summer's 'Gibeciere'.

As Bill says, the Recreations Mathematiques were printed and reprinted over a long period of time with different authors (more like editors). The books are basically a patchwork quilt of material gleaned from a variety of different sources.

Interstingly, Guyot, in his version of Recreations Mathematiques, specifically credits Ozanam for the workon the cups and balls.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
Bill Palmer
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That publication date of Ozanam should read 1692. That's when the first edition in the Fechner bibliography was dated.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
lint
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Hey everyone.

Boy, what a big update I have for you thanks to well known forum member Bill Palmer. The last list I think had around 350 entries. The one I am posting below has 896! For the time being it also includes chop cup routines as well. I have not made up my mind on if I will include it in the future, but for now, they are included. This update includes a lot of German entries as well as magazine articles. Magazine articles are listed in the following format "author - article name: magazine name". Also, some of the book authors "might" not be the actual author of the book, however they will be the author of the corresponding section on cup work in the specific book. That discrepancy will be clearer in a future version of this bibliography.

Also, the "Unknown" section is very rough at the moment. A lot of the entries I have not had a lot of time to investigate yet.

Anyhow, enjoy and keep any additions, updates and suggestions coming. I have some really great things planned for this video/bibliography in the future that you will all enjoy.

-Todd

Click here to view/download attached file.
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
fortasse
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Todd : Outstanding! You've really been working. I'm glad to see you decided to stray beyond the original criteria to incorporate some of the outer fringes of the C&B experience, e.g. the influence of cups and balls on graphic art, as exemplified by Volkmann's "Oldest Deception" and Bob Read's treatises.

A couple more additions for you: by a curious coincidence I have sitting on the table right next to me two important French conjuring books with extensive sections on Cups and balls : "Le Magicien Des Salons Ou Le Diablo Coleur de Rose" by Richard and "Les Mille Recreations De Societe". If you need further bibliographical information on these, feel free to PM me.

Your bibliography is really growing wonderfully, Todd. I hope you see it through.

Fortasse

PS : I hope you plan to re-organize the alphabetical listing so that authors' surnames appear before their first names.
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Here's another one:

Drake, Don and Geno Munari: Cups and Balls, with special material by Darwin and Geoffrey Hansen ©1996 Geno Munari (Houdini Magic).

Although it is chock full of misinformation, it still belongs on the list.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
lint
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Fortasse, thank you for the new additions and suggestions. Yes it has been a lot of work, but it will be worth it. I do not plan to change the author name formatting on this particular list. The list I am posting here on the forum is strictly for people here who want a quick reference to use in their collecting and to satisfy their curiosity as to what is available in regards to cup play. If the list were smaller, I might do a quick reformat, but it would take too much of my time away from other things to do it at this point Smile If anyone is crafty with Excel and can somehow have it auto-format the author name, please chime in! This bibliography is very different from the one I am working on behind the scenes. In the future I will hopefully have a somewhat complete, properly formatted "Cup Play" bibliography for anyone interested. By the way Fortasse, congratulations on getting that Ramsay book. I hope to one day own a copy for myself.

Bill, as always thank you for your help. This project would not be anywhere as complete without your contributions.

-Todd

P.S. Next update when the list reaches 1,000.
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Bill Palmer
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Todd:

Just a point of information -- the German word Becherspiel, which translates literally as "cup play" also means a set of cups. It's kind of like the word for a deck of cards "Kartenspiel."

On the other hand, I may be wrong about this, because French is not one of my languages, (Fortasse will be able to correct me if I'm wrong), I believe one of the terms in French for the cups and balls translates to "the play of the cups."

In Italy, one of the terms for the cups is bussolotti. The conjurer is called a gioccatore. Bussolotti is an old word. But gioccatore can have a meaning of a "player." One of the most famous Spanish conjuring books is called Juegos de Manos which is "play(s) of the hands." So the idea of "playing" with the cups is fairly common in various languages.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
fortasse
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Yes, you are quite right : in French it is usually rendered "Le jeu des Gobelets" (the game or play or trick with cups) or "tour des gobelets" (trick with cups). Interestingly, the really old French works, e.g. by Ozanam and Guyot, group C&B under the broad heading of "Tours de Gibeciere", the probable origin of the well-known English phrase "bag of tricks".

Fortasse
lint
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Hey thanks for the additional info. I have long wondered what other languages words for "cups and balls" were for research purposes.

-todd

Posted: Apr 13, 2007 5:32pm
In one of the MANY fill in the blanks type questions I will have over the next several months I ask this:

What was the publishing city/state and publisher name of the following magazines?

Pallbearer's Review
Magigram
Linking Ring
Magician Monthly
Magic Wand

If anyone has just one of these mags and can quickly look up the info I would REALLY appreciate it. I need it for proper formatting. THANK YOU!

-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
atkinsod
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Todd,

Great Listing! You may be familiar with my website at: http://magicref.tripod.com where I list effects such as the Cups & Balls, Chop Cup, and so forth, along with a listing of Books, videos, and products available that contain routines featuring these effects.

My intent was never to be a complete bibliography, but rather to present some of the more common historical references and most of the currently available references to an effect.

Do you have a website where you could feature your downloads, or do you prefer to keep them limited here to the Magic Café? Nothing wrong with that, except that the files tend to get more "buried" as the lists grow.

A great site for them would be Bill Palmer's (if he wants to host them), or I would be happy to host them for you if you'd like.

Doug A.
walid ahumada
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How about Rene lavand's close-up artistry volume two (three bread crums)
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lint
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Quote:
On 2007-04-20 11:17, atkinsod wrote:
Todd,

Great Listing! You may be familiar with my website at: http://magicref.tripod.com where I list effects such as the Cups & Balls, Chop Cup, and so forth, along with a listing of Books, videos, and products available that contain routines featuring these effects.

My intent was never to be a complete bibliography, but rather to present some of the more common historical references and most of the currently available references to an effect.

Do you have a website where you could feature your downloads, or do you prefer to keep them limited here to the Magic Café? Nothing wrong with that, except that the files tend to get more "buried" as the lists grow.

A great site for them would be Bill Palmer's (if he wants to host them), or I would be happy to host them for you if you'd like.

Doug A.


Hi Doug, I was wondering when you would finally chime in! Your website provided me with a great start when I began working on this massive project.

I unfortunately do not have any website that I can keep this list on. However you or anyone else is welcome to use the list I have posted here for whatever you like. Feel free to post it on your site. The only thing that I ask is if you (or anyone else) uses it you give credit to this forum for the work and also ask for any additions that may be missing as that is the purpose of this list and having communal access to it. Oh and let me know if anyone suggests an addition so I can research and add it!

Like I have said in the past there is a properly formatted bibliography in the works with this list as its base. I will continue to provide updates to this list here on the forum and when the proper one is done I will probably get it printed up. This is far into the future though as life has been getting in the way of my work!

-todd

Quote:
On 2007-04-20 11:52, walid ahumada wrote:
How about Rene lavand's close-up artistry volume two (three bread crums)


Walid, thank you! Don't know how I missed that one. Mr. Lavand is mesmerizing to watch.

-todd

Posted: Apr 24, 2007 2:40pm
A question about Eddie Joseph for anyone who may know. It seems like most of his works were published by Abbott's Magic Co. here in the US. However I can find reference to most of his works being published prior by Max Andrews Vampire Press in England.

I am having great difficulty finding info on first additions for his works. Ill see one listed as a first edition from Abbott's, then find an early printing later on from Vampire.

Anyone know anymore about Mr. Josephs printing history?

-Todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
Bill Palmer
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Much of Eddie Joseph's work was, indeed, first printed by Max Andrews.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
lint
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05/31/07

Big update. Not so much with new entries, in fact many entries are left out from the last list (mainly vhs/dvd). These will be added back soon. The main update is the format of the list. authors are now "lastname, firstname", titles, publications, years, format are broken into separate columns making it easy to sort by magazine, year, etc.

feel free to continue to chime in with new additions or fill in any of the MANY blanks (just update me!). If you see any mistakes, please let me know. Another update will follow within a week or so.

-Todd

Click here to view/download attached file.
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
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