Kaigan - the shell game will, of course, provide a Monte style routine without the the flaw. However, the shell game is a different swindle. We are referring here to 3CM.

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Let's got over the ground rules for those who are struggling or who have failed to read the whole thread.

Please don't comment if you have not read the thread. People are repeating what others have said.

1) This is a recreation of a real scam not a ACTUAL scam. We don't have stooges like on the street.

2) Whilst it is not an ACTUAL scam, it should have the feel and style of the actual scam. Gaffed cards, $14 cards etc are not really useful.

3) The game must be interactive. There needs to be a player and a con man.

4) The performer needs to WIN every time. If the spectator wins, the swindle has failed. (The exception to this is if the con man appears to WANT to player to win)

I personally just don't let the spectators play becuase most of the time when I do this they always pick it correct because they know its not going to be there.

BINGO...which is the point of the discussion!

What solutions, ideas and thoughts are there to this problem?

This thread makes me sad

In addition to the PM I sent you Nicholas I want to add this...

He is asking for solutions, not excuses. If you don't have a solution or a potential idea don't post here. Nicholas knows as much about this scam and the magician's publications as anyone here, and probably more than most. I am surprised no one has suggested color monte the way this thread has gone.

The topic is solutions to the three card when they pick the right card and you are working without a crew...it assumes a basic knowledge of the game in the real world such as not being able to touch the card once they have picked (no Mexican turnovers or stuff like that).

Mota, before getting too carried away telling Nicholas what he can and can't post here......it's worth pointing out that this forum discusses the various "HUSTLES" out there, including 3CM.

For those looking for "magicians outs" for a version of the hustle that's been turned into a magic trick, they'd probably do better in some other forum.

Folks here tend to see 3CM as a classic hustle, and not a magic trick.

It's like popping into an online Ferrari Owners Club forum and asking about how to do repairs on your Volkswagen Beetle.

I am not telling Nicholas what he can or can't post here...I am referring to others who didn't read his request and are all over the place.

The Ferrari is the three card and the VW is of course the magic routines...photocopies of the original effect, but I expect that is what you meant.

OK, I posted that at 5:40 AM my time and was tired...that's when my cat decided he wanted to wake me up for breakfast. It is hard to sleep with a cat swatting your nose.

So I was thinking...the following idea is a combination of stuff I read by Darwin Ortiz, Whit Hadyn, and my own thoughts.

You got a guy who is following the hype...probably someone who did the 21 card trick as a kid or bought a few magic books and calls himself a magician...a real know-it-all...someone who loves being right. Arrogance is a good hook to catch him on.

So let's say he knows where the card is. You have to be presenting it like Bob Sheets does the shells...friendly and helpful and on their side. He points to the card and is right. You look at the card without letting him see it. "You are right" you happily congratulate him and put the card back face down.

Being the kind of person he is his mind is in limbo. He loves being right but is questioning if something funny is happening as you didn't show him the card. In the next step you show him he is right and do a move at the moment his brain is busy going from doubt to certainty.

You pick up the cards in a face-down stack with the ace (winning card) on the bottom. So you have an ace on the bottom and let's say two two of hearts as the other two cards.

His mind contains doubt and you are going to resolve this doubt with a flushtration move. You turn your hand up to show the ace and flushtrate a two to the table. Take the top card of the stack in your hand (the remaining two) and brush it face-down over the supposed ace on the table, then turn it face-up to show it is a two without saying a word.

Replace the two on the bottom of the ace in your hand and flushtrate a two to the left and a two to the right. Do not set down the last two but place it over the "ace" in the middle and do a slow, obvious switch (or make it obvious you pretend to switch). Immediately go into a mix. All these things happen at a good pace one after another.

Three things happen...his doubt is relieved when he sees the ace and at that moment you are doing the first move. You pretend to switch with another card and then show it to be a two, leading him further away. You then fake a switch he thinks he is following...it doesn't matter as they are both twos.

That should take the smart-alek out of him. Bust him out on this series.

Any thoughts or other ideas?

Thanks Mota - Some great ideas there.

I've decided to give up on this thread. If people can't read the thread properly then I can't be bother dealing with it!

I don't really have a solution to the problem of spectators picking the right card, but maybe I can add something about preventing the spectators to pick the right card.

I have played the three shell game (yes, I know it's a different game, just bare with me) a couple of times for charity events and there were a couple of things I noticed that might be true for the 3CM as well. At first, everybody is picking the shell that is supposed to have the pea under it while it hasn't. After a while, the people catch on and figure it's always one of the other shells. I noticed that I could actually sense when they would start to guess one of the other shells. At those moments, I would just play honest and those people would be wrong as well. This also made the people who hadn't bet yet, realise they would have been right this time and so they start to get eager to bet as well. And they will definately go for the shell they should be going for. I'm sure this works the same for 3CM, you just have to get the right feel for your audience.

If you are not sure if the spectators will play like they are supposed to or are going to guess, you can also do Gazzo's fake switch that is on the School for Scoundrels video. In effect, you are fake switching both other cards and the spectators will guess one of these cards, since they figure the money card has to be one of these, because why else would you switch these?

I realise it's not really a solution to your problem, but maybe it helps a little.

Peter

That's when the pea goes to California.

It's about time! You have criticized everyone and every suggestion, but are not smart enough to solve the problem yourself. If the problem is so hard solve, it would not be very smart to freely share the solution, but should be keep as a personal secret or sold like other great revelations.

Tom - I criticise only those who fail to read the actual question before posting. It saves so much time and prevents us going around in circles!

If people have an idea they do not wish to share then I bare them no ill will but any thoughts on the problem at hand are always greatly appreciated.

Nicholas:

I am intrigued by the problem, and as yet have no solution to offer. I always tell the specs I am going to "let" them win occasionally but that no one will be so kind in a real game.

It would seem to have 100% certainty of a win would require that NONE of the cards is the money card at the time you lay them out. The on-the-go switch this would require eludes me to date, but what a great challenge!

Jim

Jim - I really like that idea. It's very simple way of appearing in control of the game regardless of whether you win or lose.

My preferred version is that of Harry Lorayne. He just tells a story of what he saw performed on the street one day. No attempt to "sucker" a spectator just to mystify and entertain them. He pretends to be just as mystified as they are.

Right on, Carolini. I do the 3CM routine from an early issue of APOCALYPSE (Monte Monte Plus) - it does all you want a monte routine to do, and I never, ever, have to ask the spectator to "select." HL

How about using a gaffed money card.

It hasn’t been discussed in greater depth because the solution is to run the game with a crew exactly the way real grifters do. This has already been thought out by the people that make their living doing this. If you are demonstrating the con, then demonstrate the con. If you are a magician entertaining, then use one of the many non-confrontational presentations. There you go. If you must test and/or challenge the spectator you avoid the right guess problem also by shortening the sequence: No move toss, move toss, bent corner, and done. This strategy allows for a correct choice, a miss and a final stake through the heart. But you can’t stand their all day with the same 3 people playing an unlimited series of throws, that’s a pipe dream

The problem for myself as a perform is that I am not a "con artist grifting" or a "magician entertaining" but a "con artist entertaining!"

So the game needs to FEEL like the street scam while still being practical (i.e. I'm not going to have a crew of 7 people at every gig) and entertaining WITHOUT being the routine coming across as a magic trick.

I think minimising the routine is the key as carlo mentioned. I never do more then three phases.

I have looked and not seen this point made, if it was please forgive me.

Eugene Burger speaks to this in one of his books, as he does it as well.

His point is, unless real money is on the game, interest is lost quickly.

IMHO, and I have done this from the day I read about it in Expert at the Card Table until present, you have them guess ONCE. From there you "explain" how you could have done it, so there is no guessing. Darwin Ortiz takes this approach and it works well.

In truth, I have never, in all my years, had to deal with that flaw. There are some people who "see" the hype differently. Odd, but they think you are thowing the top all the time. So you adjust for them.

Bottom line, when you close with the bent corner, or the postage stamp you are going to fry them anyway...