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Chance
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Everyone's talking about standards. Here are the standards I would like to see...

STRAIT JACKET: 100% Leather. New; never before worn. Correctly sized. Collar. Straps with roller buckles (at least 4 down the back; 5 including the collar.) Side and front ADJUSTABLE hold downs. Double groin strap. Arm straps twisted inside each other.

We all know how to escape from this. Holding someone forever is not the point; we all know that escape is inevitable. The point is comparing your skills on par with that of your peers. Equal terms, equal footing, where ever possible. One jacket, one try. The next attempt requires a another virgin jacket. You wanna try 3 times, then have 3 new jackets sent ahead. So-called 10-second escapes will be a thing of the past -- where they belong.

HANDCUFFS: Smith & Wesson 'Model 1 Hinged Universal Handcuff'. 2 pairs/sets. Placed keyhole-to-keyhole. Double locked. Properly and snugly fitted, arms behind the back.

LEG IRONS: Smith & Wesson 'Model 1900 Leg Iron'. 2 pairs/sets. Placed keyhole-to-keyhole. Double locked.

Challenger must agree to a torso x-ray (thighs to eyes), and a general strip pat-down besides. Challenger will then wear a simple hospital gown and be provided with a simple screen for privacy. Time starts on command and ends when both pairs of cuffs hit the floor. Ditto for the leg irons.

All such 'hardware escapes' will include the use of leather mittens.

The only variations allowed would be combining the cuffs and leg irons if the challenger so desired. There would never be any variations such as under water, hanging upside down, on stilts, or while playing a kazoo upside down underwater.

What I propose is simple and effective. If the true purpose of a public world record challenge is to earn the respect of your peers, then this would certainly fit the bill. These would be records to be proud of.
Kondini
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I second that !!!!
Skills of ability rather than manipulation of "BS"

Ken
Harry Murphy
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Great idea Chance! A competition with real, structured, objective criteria. That would sure help some very skillful EA’s earn bragging rights. The winner would be the “most skillful” at whatever category they competed in (straightjacket, cuffs, band aids) or most skillful all around EA.

Maybe the Cannon’s would consider adding this type of competition at their convention next year. They already have similar lock picking competitions.

I'd enjoy watching and even offer to be a judge or a time keeper.

I'd never enter since I have poor skills at "real" escaping (yes I can get out of a “regulation“ (whatever that is) straight jacket (even the proper size), open a pair of Peerless, or S&W cuffs, and even pick the odd lock. But I could, for the life of me, never figure out why I would want to in actual performance.

I can still sling the B.S. and brag/advertise, that I’m “the shortest, oldest (still living and still working), most out of shape,” EA out there! LOL!!!

Now I’d really like to see the competition be at who could entertain an audience with an escape (or series of escapes). The judges would be an audience made up of an assortment for honest to goodness, real (non performer), folks, all ages, genders, races, religions, and sexual persuasion.

Sensors would record laughs, sounds of amazement, and applause. And of course there would be the vote. Now there would be some bragging rights.

Honestly, an entertaining escape impresses me much more than a rigid criteria escape or real danger escape done woodenly or mechanically. Frankly, it is more difficult to pull off!
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
Cliffg37
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I hear what you are saying Chance, and I think that wouls be pretty cool, I just wonder what the spectators would think, having watched someone taking ten minutes (or what ever) to set a record, or try to, and then the same person gets out of some get up that looks the same on stage in less than one minute.

I am also curious, having never done any of the real stuff that you are proposing, how long you feel it would take you to get out of the above?

On a side note, as much as I agree with you about the records, There was something relly amazing about watching DuBois get out of a stratjacket in 7 seconds a year and a half ago at cannons, and then watching Andrew do it in less than 5 seconds! These were non gimmicked, but no crotch strap or side loops.

I think if we wanted to institute our own records of the type you are suggesting, the one to speak to would be Tom over at Escape Masters. I have no clue if he would be into it or not, but I beleive that would be the perfect place to keep track of such things. If he were willing, a collumn in his magazine about who is currently holding what record.

Just my thoughts.
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Chance
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Thanks Ken, BS indeed.

Harry, as regards your final paragraph, we're only talking now about a record challenge, not performance. Being funny, charming or otherwise entertaining is not the issue here.

Cliff. Records are not for the spectators. Shows are. A world record challenge **should** be more for private consumption than public. It **should** be a legitimate test of one's abilities against those of their peers, with only strict objective criteria as the guideline. Those that insist the opposite are only interested in papering their den with cool looking, but utterly bogus "certificates". Then they get to display them on their web sites and promo materials. Could be a great marketing tool for some, but not for everyone.

7 seconds? 5 seconds? Hell, why even bother with a jacket. Why not just digress right to a wet paper bag? As a martial arts instructor it bothers me when I hear guys brag about how they earned a Black Belt in just a few months. I don't care WHO they are, or what physical skills they possess, they really couldn't have done it. There is just so much more to the fighting arts than punching and kicking or twisting through the air. Sure, maybe they were GIVEN a BB certificate, but there is no doubt about whether or not it was deserved.

Likewise, it bothers me even more to know that most of the EA's taking credit for these bogus records could probably handle a true record challenge, like the one I suggested. That being the case, why give in to these meaningless challenges? It just doesn't make any sense to me. Why accept the false Black Belt certificate when you could proove that you were worthy of the real thing?

How long would it take me? I couldn't say. I've never been challenged under those criteria. But I would love to find out while I'm still able!
AntonDreaming
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Maybe Chance you should set the bench mark for a few of these and get the ball rolling. I think its a very interesting idea. Maybe you could work with cannons and come up with a set of challenges that would determin who was the best/most skilled in the fields in question. I myself will be picking up some leg irons shortly. Well see what I figure out.

Anton
Chance
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I thought I just had. What seems to be missing in your opinion?
AntonDreaming
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I was meaning that you should atempt some of these at set a time to be beat. Even if its not a particularly stellar time it will encourge other to attmept as they will have somthing to compare their time to.

Sorry for the confusion...

Anton
Chance
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As you and Harry both said the Cannon's would probably be a better place to start. If my post here inspires them so much the better, but I am neither qualified nor motivated to offer a world record challenge myself.
AntonDreaming
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Understood. But even Just to atempt and document your own attempt for others to late compare would be interesting. Not suggesting that you yourself should hold some sort of compitition or anything. But agreed cannons would be the place to start.

Anton
Kondini
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Such efforts should be made within the ea community as a closed shop event.
To make public such a spectacle of being able to escape from anything in a short time, will demean the whole aspect of entertaining escapology, for the public to be made aware that there are many escapologists capable of escapeing everything will detract from the awe appeal which is the crux of our art in entertainment form.

If people must try to outdo others for self esteem then let it be done in private. For, from a performance point of view it would be self prostitution.

The biuld up of any escape is what gives us the art and entertainment value.

The speed escape is as to speed date!!!! Over before its begun !!!!

I know which I would prefer.

Escapology is a "Performance Art" Why turn it into an Olympic Trial.

Ken
Roslyn
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First off, I'd like to say its great to see Chance back amoung us. Its been a while.

I'm a bit confused with the cuff stuff.

Are you saying that the ea shouldn't have tools, should be able to hide tools so that they aren't detected during the search or use tools out in the open?

If you are to use tools, would there be a set tool that's aloud and therefore other stuff isn't?

What tools would be aloud and what wouldn't?

Also, if tools are used out in the open would the search simply be to make sure that only those permitted tools are being used?

Why the screen? Surely the only way to make sure that the ea isn't cheating is to have the thing out in the open?

I mean we're all part of the deceptive arts so, to be totally blunt, we lie for a living Smile

With regards to the sj stuff. Aren't there already rules set for this? I was of the impression that a Posey with friction buckles and front/side loops was the standard. Since this is a regulation sj it seems to make sense.
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Chance
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Hi Ros, great to BE back.

The original post simply refers to MY preferences for world record challenge criteria. My personal dream list, as it were. I'm aware that either Humane Restraint or Posey jackets are considered the current standard. But I'm also aware that the very same jackets are being "beaten" in less than 10 seconds.

My other "dream" was to simplify the whole process. All the under water, stilt, fastest, slowest, longest, lowest, highest crap was getting me down. Let's be honest and just call it out for the crazy nonsense it is. All the categories and sub categories are just excuses for extra meaningless certificates. A lot of light, but zero heat.

After posting the original, I did think of one extra category, which you also mentioned: tools-in-the-open, or not. Rankings would be awarded for each. But I'm NOT in favor of complicating the escapes themselves any further than previously mentioned. Just keep it simple: 4 possible escape variations, each with the possiblity of open use of tools.

The privacy issue would be left up to the participant. No extra merits or demerits either way. But I'm willing to bet privacy would be asked for at least 75% of the time.

By closely following all the above the threat of cheating would be reduced to just about nil. So long as real pros were staging the challenge and egos were left at the door there shouldn't be too much worry. And that's exactly my point overall. The way things are managed currently the foxes run the chicken coop. Since when does the runner tell the marathon organizers how to stage the run? Or the boxers tell the gaming commission how to behave? But somehow the EA's have managed to do just that. With my setup the exact opposite would be happening, and the participants would be the ones taking the orders and doing their best to succeed under the conditions set forth by the managing body of experts. I realize I'm stepping on a lot of toes right now, but I'm just calling it the way I see it.
dave_matkin
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HI Guys......

Sounds good ...... only thing is ........ I think the added task of playing a Kazoo upside down in water would really make the task difficult! And I am not sure you can play a kazoo underwater! And what would cliff 37 do he has been practicing for ages …………“You can't hear it on the Café, but I am plying "happy birthday" on my kazoo!” and “I am getting tired of playing happy birthday on my kazoo. I am going to play jingle bells instead, and just know I mean happy birthday.” (Cliffg37 Special user Long Beach, CA)

But seriously … the idea of a restricted number of possibilities is a good idea. I thought though that was the idea? They don’t allow firsts, why allow new slightly different things anyway? I don’t suppose they would award new records for different height stilts.

My only question is why smith and western – and not say Hiatts? Or is it the type of cuff you want to restrict?

The idea of a full search is good – but I am not sure about the x-ray part – thinking of time in arranging and having ones testicles fried etc? What about metal detector instead? Or do you want the tails felling off all our little fellows?
Harley Newman
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But "Happy Birthday" and "Jingle Bells" are two different songs. That means there'd be two different records.
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dave_matkin
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It¡¦s a very good point Harley


But I am sure we will all run out to buy Cliffg37 first hit record on Kazoo when he gets round to cutting it in wax and getting it on to vinyl ļ I am sure we will all support him.

Or did you mean the other type of record?
DavidEscapes
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Hi everyone

I don't want to dredge up the records conversations still further. But I have to add just a couple of things.

Chance said:

"If the true purpose of a public world record challenge is to earn the respect of your peers, then this would certainly fit the bill. These would be records to be proud of."

The true purpose of a world record challenge is to get more gigs! The respect of your peers is earned by the quality of your work, not by escaping from stuff fast!And doesn't pay the bills in any case Smile

Ken Said:

"Escapology is a "Performance Art" why turn it into an Olympic Trial."

I agree 100%. that's why I never attempt records as part of normal publlc shows (except for two TV appearences where I got to take my time and make a show out of it!). When I do attempt them, its for publicity, and for charity.

It really doesn't matter one bit, WHAT standards we set for records. They WILL be corrupted. that's why I don't even bother going over old records anymore. Been there, did it. Time to move on. I will take any challenge listed here, set it, and walk away. Someone will come along and beat it soon enough, fairly or not (mostly fairly in my opinion, only occasionally not!) but what of it. If me, or you, or anyone else was the first, anyone else coming after is just following on.

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Chance
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"The true purpose of a world record challenge is to get more gigs!"

First of all, to set a world record you have to be challenged by one.

Taking part in a simple publicity stunt utilizing regulation jackets (which have been improperly fit and/or applied), or regulation handcuffs (which are actually high quality fakes from Australia), after being searched for tools (by easily embarrassed novices that have never touched a naked human form in public before), etc., etc., etc., does NOT qualify as a world record challenge.

If it did, then every single show I have performed over the past 12 years would qualify!!
Kondini
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Ha ha ha,,,,,,right on,,,,every show I do qualifies me with a new world record,,,,at least that`s what the audience think,,,why, cos that`s what I tell them.

Who`s a little tinker then!

C`mon, its called entertainment.

Ken
DavidEscapes
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Quote:
On 2007-03-03 10:56, Chance wrote:
"The true purpose of a world record challenge is to get more gigs!"

First of all, to set a world record you have to be challenged by one.

Taking part in a simple publicity stunt utilizing regulation jackets (which have been improperly fit and/or applied), or regulation handcuffs (which are actually high quality fakes from Australia), after being searched for tools (by easily embarrassed novices that have never touched a naked human form in public before), etc., etc., etc., does NOT qualify as a world record challenge.


True. But I think that most of the records being set ARE true challenges, with properly applied, real equipment. There are definatly a few fakers out there, but I don't think it is anyones place to name them without proof. Do you care to name any?

I don't know why everyone is so bothered about records. I set a few to raise money for charity, and as a personal challenge. The whole records issue shouldn't really matter this much to people. And yes, I could probably have found a way to sneak faked equipment in there, but why bother? I can do it for real, so why waste my time messing around! The first time I set a world record I set three, back to back, all of them were accepted by Guinness because I went out of my way to make sure everything was above board. At least one very knowlegable EA was on site and was allowed full access to everything. If there had been a problem, he would have noticed! That wasn't required by Guinness, he just asked to come along, and I was happy to let him have free reign.

Again though, for some people, records are just another way of getting publicity, or raising charity money, or taking on personal challenges, or all three. Who really has the time to get so wrapped up in all of this?
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