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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
First, I would say that Scarne's book does an excellent job of describing the moves involved in the scam, and offers many original and useful moves and dodges. But he doesn't really explain the scam at all. The way that the shills are actually used, the betting, all of the important stuff to work the scam on the street is left out. He is concentrating on the methods that can be used in exhibition routines by magicians for entertainment.
Second, I think it is a bad idea to do the monte at a party as you seem to suggest, Pekka. If you really take people's money from them, even if it is later given back, you will make them feel stupid--like suckers--and that is not an entertaining feeling. One of the hardest aspects of doing an exhibition routine is to get as close as possible to the truth of the game without making anyone feel bad. Magicians go to great lengths to avoid this. Vernon was very conscious of the problem. It is such a direct challenge, that the sting has to be softened in some way. Third, there are no "poor victims" in three-card monte. Every vic has had his ego, lust, or avarice teased to the point that he is willing to take unfair advantage of a blind and deaf man. It is not a pretty picture, and people will not appreciate you exposing or revealing them in this light. I think you might want to read through some of the School for Scoundrels notes before you atttempt anything like you described. |
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts |
Hi Whit,
What you say is gospel as far as poor victims go. One of my first Jobs was in a gyp shack at Salisbury Beach, here in Massachusetts. My boss was a guy named Jack-Eye Brown. The first thing old smilin’ Jack taught me was you couldn’t hustle an honest person. It simply cannot be done. A truly honest person will have no part of taking something for nothing. The funny thing is, there are not many honest people out there. Eight to eighty, wicked, mild, or crazy, almost every last one of us loves a hustle. When you do run into an honest soul, and they do exist, it’ll always make you grin. I do not gamble for money in a game ever. The reason for that is the other thing Jack-Eye taught me. Conning a con man is easier than most people think. You are also right about exposing the pigeon. Even on the street you shouldn’t let the apple know he’s ripe and shiny. People on the street will only go jackpot when you burn them with flagrant display. In an exhibition it would be disastrous not to mention just plain rude. None of us like to admit that part of our psyche to ourselves; so to have it exposed in front of others would certainly not contribute to harmonious relations with the audience. Best, Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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Patrick McKeever New user 79 Posts |
Man, Whit and Danny,
You guys are really busting my chops on this one. I have been performing Three Card Monte at Corporate parties, hospitality suites, and private parties for years. My approach has always been: " I'd like to show you an old street hustle that you should never be suckered in by. I'll show you why." I even performed it while busking bars on 6th St. in Austin, right in front of a crowd of detectives down for some kind of work shop. In fact on that one, I got the biggest hat I ever got in a bar. Now, I am not trying to present myself as an ol' bar busker cause I am not ( probabaly 30 bars in 25 years of magic). I guess what I am trying to express,here is, I think it is possible to fry an audience (and let's face it , folks, that's what we are about) without embarrassing them or making them feel inadequate in any way. And I think 3 card Monte is *** good entertainment. Whit, you have been my magic hero for the past six months, based on your various publications. There is so much good stuff in them. And Danny, I have thoroughly enjoyed your little epistles here on the board. I have learned a lot from both of you. but... I am going to have to go with my instincts on this one. I will, however, be more careful of the venue. |
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BroDavid Inner circle America’s North Coast, Ohio 3176 Posts |
Whit and Danny have really said about all there is to say about the 3CM.
But as a general thought on cons, (I am not encouraging them, but only attempting to explain a little) the only way a con can keep a mark losing, is if the mark feels they have a chance to win. When I left one hurting, (back in another phase of my life..), I did all I could to make sure they were convinced that they were really "this close" to winning. 3CM - the real work - uses shills to help with that. Magic works a lot that same way. People don't mind being fooled once or twice. But if you want to keep fooling them, they need a sense that they just might figure it out, some where along the line. You can never expose them as stupid or gullible, or easy to fool. But I do see 3CM working as an exposure demonstration, if you don't't really take their money. And it sounds to me that Patrick has a good sense of how to handle it at that level. I haven't done 3CM in a long time, but that Scoundrels video sounds like a pretty interesting item. And it might lead me back into it, purely as a demonstration... BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
I can vouch for the quality of information in The School for Scoundrel's book and video on the Monte. Both are absolutely superlative, both for performance ideas and for a fascinating historical and theoretical education of this con. If you are at all interested in 3CM, you absolutely must have these works.
I agree that Daryl's video is also excellent, as is Ortiz' routine. However, if you want a COURSE on the 3CM, it's performance, history and psychology, you really must have the SFS resources. I give both the book and video my absolute, unreserved, highest recommendation.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Patrick McKeever New user 79 Posts |
I can certainly vouch for other SFS products. The shells that Chef Anton makes are superb. I made my own for years with walnut shells and even tried the Golden Shells, which I found too heavy. the SFS shells are like air in your fingers. The peas are unsurpassed.
Seems as though I am about to fork over some of my hard earned cash for those notes on 3Card Monte. Just when I thought I had everything on the subject. |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Patrick McKeever:
None of us were saying that an exhibition of three-card monte is not great entertainment--it is wonderful. What we were talking about is the actual taking of someone's money at a party like Pekka suggested. And of course, the shell game and three-card monte should never be done in an unsponsored street venue. I perform the monte and the shell game as a regular part of my close-up magic, and they are both very popular. The SS book on Three-Card explains some of the ways that the direct challenge to the spectator's ego can be deflected to make the performance more fun and less competitive. But when the game is played as it is on the streets, the hit is hard to the sucker's view of himself, and often ends with his knees buckling from under him as if he had been hit with a hammer. He often ends up puking his guts out in an alley. Anger and murderous rage come much later, after the self-loathing rant, and head-pounding against the wall. This is not at all exagerated. It is described the same way in Devol's book from the 1870's--40 Years a Gambler on the Mississippi. I have seen all of these responses happen, and if you doubt me, read some of the many accounts in our book. To understand the why and how of this, which most magicians definitely do not get, we wrote the book and put out the video. And by the way, Chef Anton does not make the shells. He and I produce them for the School for Scoundrels, but the original design is mine, and the original model was carved by me, from my own shell game set made of walnut shells. The same model is used for both our heavy gold-plated, pewter Golden Shells, and the plastic resin Street Shells. |
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Patrick McKeever New user 79 Posts |
Whit,
I stand corrected. It is the Street Shells that I was referring to. They are wonderful. Maybe it is the pea that Chef makes. I could be wrong there as well. I look forward to SFS's work of 3 Card Monte. It wasn't until I saw your 4 Ring Routine that I had any interest in doing the linking rings. I recently saw Cellini's 2 ring routine that he does to music. It is beautifully elegant. However, my doing a routine to music would be akin to watching a hippo in a tu tu. But, they did that in Fantasia, didn't they? |
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-03-22 13:08, Patrick McKeever wrote: Hi Patrick, I don’t disagree with this statement at all. I think the three card trick in a demonstrative fashion can be excellent magic. My problem is with the gigantic EFFRONT YOU factor that a lot of people put in it. I want to fry people sure but I don’t want to make them feel like a ‘sucker’. Dai Vernon’s handling of the bent corner is the most gentlemanly way of presenting this effect ever and I love that. They still get all of the “What the..!” without the “You’re a moron”. I have always loved Cy Endfield’s work on the three card game as well and for a magicians gaming routine it is wonderful. I just think a person should be careful about rubbing their noses in it. You can also do this with your language throughout the routine and still leave all the big bang moments in. I dunno, if it is working for you and they don’t think you are a jerk then by all means keep doing it. Sometimes the best parts of the rules are the exceptions. Best, Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Patrick:
The Perfect Peas were made for us by a large plastics factory by injection molding. The color, consistancy, size, friction, and give of the peas was a mutual decision by Anton and myself. The method for putting a magnet in our magnetic peas was developed by me. However, most of the School for Scoundrels material is the result of collaborative efforts between Chef Anton and me. |
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MAGICTOM Veteran user Dallas, Tx 354 Posts |
Doc Eason has a nice 3 card monte with ungaffed cards, it is a nice routine as well.. I believe he uses 2 "2 of hearts" and a queen (find the lady).. he goes through it several times, and in the end, all the cards are turned over and found to all be queens, and somehow the "2"s end up under his glass on the bar.. vague description I know, but check it out if you get the chance.. I think its on volume 2 of his bar magic tapes
C-ya Tom
No Man is his craft's master the first day!
J.B. Bobo |
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m@t Loyal user London, UK www.MatthewLaskey.com 250 Posts |
Cheers guys for all your help!
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John Clarkson Special user Santa Barbara, CA 749 Posts |
Quote: An e-mail several months ago from SS told me that there is a plan to make the video available on DVD. How is that coming along? I'd love to get it, but do not want one more VHS taking up space in my library so am waiting for the DVD.
On 2003-01-17 23:37, whithaydn wrote: What's the word?
John D. Clarkson, S.O.B. (Sacred Omphaloskeptic Brotherhood)
Cozener "There is nothing more important to a magician than keeping secrets. Probably because so many of them are Gay." —Peggy, from King of the Hill (Sleight of Hank) |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
It will be a several months.
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magicman222 Regular user 168 Posts |
I use the Micheal Skinner Ultimate Three Card Monte. It doesn't require too much skill.
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Patrick McKeever New user 79 Posts |
Skinner's Ultimate 3 Card Monte is a real fooler. I do it as a change of pace for audiences who have often seen me toss the broad at private parties.
I once had the privilege of spending a couple of hours with Michael. We spent a lot of that time discussing 3 Card Monte. Michael's hype was a thing of beauty. This was about 3 years before he left us. Even though the tremor was there and he was in failing health, he was still a class act. I regret that I had not met him earlier on. Speaking of gentlemen, you are right, Danny, Vernon's finish with the bent corner is very gracious. I'm not THAT gracious but I still try to soften the ego punch. |
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