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mfreno
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Dexter, Michigan
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The Classic Force depends on timing. Just out of curiousity, what do people use as an out when it does not work.
daniel1113
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A trick/effect that does not depend on a forced card, such as an invisible deck routine.
Daniel M. Carrico
mc_magi
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Vancouver, BC
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If you are in the middle of a routine, and you can't get out of it, I'd use some other type of a force unless you were darn sure that you were going to hit that force card.

Other than that, like the poster above, I'd go and change.

Or you can use many switches that are available, but I think unless there is really good audience management, it causes suspicion.
rorythegreat
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Seattle, WA
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You can always start an Ambitious Card routine. I usually do this when the force doesn't work.
Julie
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Here's an alternative handling that works:

Assuming you've maintained control of the to-be-forced card, ask the audience helper to turn the card he's just removed from the deck face up. At that moment the helper's and the rest of the audience's atttention will be on that card.

Casually cut (or "pass"?) the to-be-forced card to the top or bottom of the deck. Ask the helper to use the face up card like a knife to cut into the deck anywhere by inserting the face up card halfway into the deck. Open the deck at that point and do a slip force kind of move to complete the force. Remove the "knife" and direct the helper or another spectator to look at the freely selected (forced) card.

Just act as though the first part about taking a card to be used as a knife is part of the trick...

It's all a matter of attitude and it works every time!

Julie
mc_magi
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Vancouver, BC
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Wow, never thought of that.. and I'm kicking myself for all those times I practiced my CF in real situation and using different tricks cause it didn't work!

Thanks for the idea.
Dannydoyle
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There is no need for an "out" as it is thought of traditionally.

Simply glimpse a card once it is controled if you have too. Barring that you know when the force is going bad, simply pull out and do it again.

But glimpsing the card really works well.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
stepseven
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Staffs, UK
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It's always worth having an out prepared. So if you have a force that goes wrong or the spec messes you up by lying/forgetting their card you can save the trick.

Invisible Deck mentioned is a classic example, check out Kolossal Killer too..

As your repertoire grows you'll find you have alternative effects you can switch into anyway - 'til then keep the back-up.
+ev
Pete McEwen
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Julie that is great!! I love that idea. I have just used a top change as described in Card College vol. 1

Pete
The magician formerly known as SPEEDcuber
"no one will believe the things we do if we don't believe them ourselves." - Slydini
PeteMcEwen@mac.com
Hideo Kato
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Tokyo
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Again the best soultion can be determined by the context in which the OP is doing.
For example, if you place the prediction and tried to force the predicted card, Invisible Deck never helps. If you are doing Red Hot Mama, using missed card as the knife to select another card would not be good.

In what situation, you miss the Force?

Hideo Kato
Jaz
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Excellent point Hideo.
DStachowiak
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Quote:
On 2007-03-11 03:13, Dannydoyle wrote:
There is no need for an "out" as it is thought of traditionally.

Simply glimpse a card once it is controled if you have too. Barring that you know when the force is going bad, simply pull out and do it again.

But glimpsing the card really works well.

Danny,
There is one situation where you would HAVE to force successfully, rather than using the glimpse (although I agree that it's a great solution) That would be when the denouement of the trick has already been set in motion, as in Penn and Teller's pizza trick (I can't remember the name of the trick, but it's from "How to Play with Your Food"). Needless to say, this requires a force that is 100% effective, and also has to be 100% convincing of a free choice.
Woke up.
Fell out of bed.
Dragged a comb across m' head.
Terry Screen
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Zhejiang China
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Actually Julie's idea for an 'out' could be taken a stage further and still force the correct card AND protect any small stack immediately below.
Once the force has been missed . .
Quote:
On 2007-03-11 00:49, Julie wrote:
Casually cut (or "pass"?) the to-be-forced card to the top or bottom of the deck. Ask the helper to use the face up card like a knife to cut into the deck anywhere by inserting the face up card halfway into the deck.
Julie

If you cut or pass it to the top, suggest that in case they feel you might possibly have influenced their choice (what!??) and to make it fairer, ask them to stab the deck with the (wrongly) selected card FACE DOWN. After it's been inserted say, "Just out of interest what card DID you pick first time? This gives you the motivation to execute Bill Simon's 'Prophecy move' as you turn it face up, and voila, the original card is forced, and the stack below still in place.
Of course if it is a location type effect just have the 'wrong card' inserted into the deck at a known position above or below the original force card and use it as a key card.
Montethrower
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a little town in nowhere
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I rarely miss anymore. When you start doing it, and KEEP doing it, it becomes a knack-like thing. In Derek Dingle's Last Notes, Simon recalls that he NEVER saw Derek miss. It's almost zen-like in the fact that the longer you do it, the better you are at it. for example: My brother hits eighty percent of the time, when he's doing it behind his back without looking. From the front, we don't miss, hardly ever.

BUT, on the rare occasion that you do, I usally move into an ambitious card effect. But that's just me, you can sub any random-pick-a-card trick in there that you want.

best,
Monte
Dannydoyle
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Heba told me to force a card for EVERY trick wheather I had to or not. What a great amount of practice this is.

Eventually missing isn't really even an issue.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
DStachowiak
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Quote:
On 2007-03-11 13:54, Dannydoyle wrote:
Heba told me to force a card for EVERY trick wheather I had to or not. What a great amount of practice this is.

Eventually missing isn't really even an issue.

This is wonderful advice for getting over "Fear of Forcing"
Woke up.
Fell out of bed.
Dragged a comb across m' head.
luvisi
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In Secrets of Conjuring and Magic, Robert-Houdin suggests saying that you saw the card, and suggesting that they be more careful to keep you from seeing it. This gives you another chance and demonstrates your most impeccable honesty.

In Volume 1 of The Tarbell Course in Magic, Tarbell suggests that you try the force on another audience member. Then, do other tricks with the card or cards that you missed, and get back onto track when you come to the one who picked the correct card. He also mentions that you can do a gag where you ask the spectator who chose the wrong card "What was your card?" When they name it, you turn it face up and say "That's right!" Then proceed as planned with the successfully forced card.

In The Amateur Magician's Handbook, Henry Hay suggests using the Collins force as an out, with the missed card as an indicator.

In Blackstone's Tricks Anyone Can Do, Harry Blackstone suggests using the force card as a key. If they only miss by a few, tell them not to pull it out, just to peek at it, and remember the displacement. If they miss by a bunch, have them remove it and proceed as usual.

Best of luck,
Andru
Julie
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Quote:
On 2007-03-11 12:05, DStachowiak wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-03-11 03:13, Dannydoyle wrote:
There is no need for an "out" as it is thought of traditionally.

Simply glimpse a card once it is controled if you have too. Barring that you know when the force is going bad, simply pull out and do it again.

But glimpsing the card really works well.

Danny,
There is one situation where you would HAVE to force successfully, rather than using the glimpse (although I agree that it's a great solution) That would be when the denouement of the trick has already been set in motion, as in Penn and Teller's pizza trick (I can't remember the name of the trick, but it's from "How to Play with Your Food"). Needless to say, this requires a force that is 100% effective, and also has to be 100% convincing of a free choice.


Obviously, in this situation, you wouldn't want to rely upon a classic force in a presentation for Real People... Smile

Julie
Dannydoyle
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Any well executed force will leave the impression of a freely chosen card.
That is the whole point. I agree I might not use a classic force if I was tied into a 100% having to do it. Even Heba was not 100%, nobody is.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mfreno
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Dexter, Michigan
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Great idea, Julie. The CF works about 90-95% of the time but then you get the guy who likes to take the second from the last card. I love your recovery. Thanks.
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