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Carlos the Great Inner circle California 1234 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-03-23 12:14, Simon Lovell wrote: While what you wrote is true, it is irrelevant. The discussion here is about this product and the ones who made it ("made" used in a loose sense, based on everybody's opinion that it was ripped off). To say that others do it is to merely try to redirect attention away from the EXACT thing this thread is talking about. Personally, I am having a hard time reconciling the history of MM, this product, your involvement without realizing what everybody else here seems to know, and your continued support of MM (okay, so you didn't know but NOBODY else at MM did???). Having said that, I will give anybody the benefit of the doubt once (at least). In the end, we all answer only to ourselves. I support those who I think are not only creative and clever but honest and forthright. Have I mentioned I don't have any MM items? -Carlos
Cognite tute
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Simon Lovell V.I.P. 506 Posts |
Bitterman,
I would never make fun of a "cripple" in a crowd and cannot remember doing anything of the sort at any time ever. Perhaps you would care to state the exact show and I will check through my tapes to see exactly what happened (I keep audio of all my shows just for cases like this). It may be that it was a friend of mine at the back and we were having fun but I doubt it. There are various topics I don't cover and that is one of them. Unless you have evidence to support your claim then that is my last word on this cheap shot. I also, not to be rude, don't like the use of that word. In addition to say that you keep friends of other races just so, "you are covered" when making jokes about them is a terrible thing to say even in humor.I can only hope that was a very bad joke because, if true, it is beyond awful. By the way, unless someone in the crowd is totally out of order, I always give them a chance for recourse but won't enter into a long drawn-out thing with them. I have enough material to more than cover my time without their help and the audience has paid to see and hear me (bomb or not!) ... not them. If they wish to have a long discourse they can get their own show! Since I use the plastic hip joke in all my shows you may well be remembering a different performer. To repeat, this is not on topic at all. Josh, I had heard of MOABT but, with research and assurances, learned that it was not a new principle ... simply an application of an older one. I would never do anything I believed to be unethical. For the very last time ... I simply wrote the instructions for an effect. I do this a lot with, for example, the Fantasma product line. I am given a prop and asked to write it it up. I try to do as much research as possible before doing the writing and always try to give credit and history where credit and history is due. I truly did not think there was anything wrong with writing this up. As I've said already in this thread we all make mistakes and, if this is one of mine, then I will investigate further as to exactly what (not hearsay or opinions) the problems are and will attempt, to the best of my ability, to correct them. Sorry to sound a bit annoyed but it seems that I am being blamed for something that I shouldn't be ... both with a cheap shot and with regards to the actual topic of this thread. Still, I wish you all the very best, Simon |
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Simon Lovell V.I.P. 506 Posts |
This all seems to have come to personally attacking me now (bitterman's use of an old poem being, perhaps, the most childish) so I will simply say that when people wish to discuss things in an adult way, without personal attacks, then I will happily do so. Until then I will leave you to your talk.
To Hoax, I don't need my name on anything especially something you folks don't seem to like. I certainly don't ask for name recognition on a lot of stuff I like. Not to be big-headed but I already have a name ... I don't need to ask to be on stuff at all. I also care deeply about my work and magic in general. I've already spent a lot of time trying to explain myself and need not repeat things further. With the very best of wishes to all, Simon |
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Carlos the Great Inner circle California 1234 Posts |
Simon,
I want to be clear and apologize if it seems like I am piling on. I will admit that, ethics and slimeness aside (referring to basic idea of ripping people off), I also object to this type of thing for a selfish reason. As more and more people get ripped off, they are releasing less and less of their good ideas. As somebody who is ALWAYS looking for good ideas, this hurts. That is, of course, secondary to the revulsion I feel towards rip-off artists. As I said, you have the benefit of the doubt, to me at least. It's as if you weren't involved at all in my mind. I find some of the comments here to be too close to personal attacks and that is too bad. I'd be really ticked if somebody made a poem with my name, that is for sure, lol. In any case, I don't know about any of the factual underpinnings of what anybody is saying, only what the consensus feeling is. Here's hoping that nobody buys the product on Amazon. -Carlos
Cognite tute
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Philosophry Veteran user 321 Posts |
There is only a limited number of ways of gaffing a book test. I've yet to find a method I haven't considered already. The skill in creating a book test is creating a believable book and reason for using it. After watching a performance of one (I won't bother to name names unless asked) popular book test EVERY SINGLE person I was with, all non-magicians, worked out the method. And since the method is the only one that makes any sense, it's pretty easy to work out.
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Simon Lovell V.I.P. 506 Posts |
Carlos,
Thank you - you seem to be a nice guy - I hope to meet up with you one of these days! Simon |
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Xiqual Inner circle Upper left quadrant 4935 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-03-23 16:55, bitterman wrote: Seriously Lance, You have an ebook that is a Larry Becker effect so maybe you should not talk. James Linn
Still with the Chinese circus
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bitterman Inner circle 1189 Posts |
Simon,
The show was last year in Cambridge, MA at the studio. It was just after you got all ****y when your hack Shakespeare joke bombed and you were accusing the few people left in the club of not being smart enough for your material. Since I was the cripple in question, I'm pretty sure "we were having fun" can't be your out this time. In fact, I was sitting, trying to enjoy your show when you tore into me for no reason at all. Had I been heckling, or if you had dragged me up on stage, it might have made some how seemed motivated, but like I said, perhaps it was just a flight or fight reaction after your last bit sunk without a trace. Should you ever come to town again, I'll be happy to introduce myself after the show. Your friend in Jesus, Lance
If you are not cheating, you are only cheating yourself.
Dutchco is about to put out some new Ebook: DUTCHCO. Get 'em while you can. |
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Xiqual Inner circle Upper left quadrant 4935 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-03-23 19:53, Jim-Callahan wrote: That's called "Fame" Jim. I understand your tone, but I think it's funny because all the people in this thread would like to be as well known as Simon Lovell. As far as Bitterman talking about bombing on stage, who hasn't? If you haven't bombed it just menas you only work at home. [which there is absolutely nothing wrong with] James
Still with the Chinese circus
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bitterman Inner circle 1189 Posts |
You are right James. Next time one of my jokes stinks the joint up I'll attack a cripple, that's the ticket.
If you are not cheating, you are only cheating yourself.
Dutchco is about to put out some new Ebook: DUTCHCO. Get 'em while you can. |
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Simon Lovell V.I.P. 506 Posts |
Bitterman,
Exactly what did I say at the show that you remember? If, I said anything wrong after hearing what you have to say then I will, yet again, unreservedly apologize. By the way the Shakespeare jokes may not have gone so well that night, all performers have the odd bad night, but often are considered very funny by my crowds. The 'not smart enough' comment acually is worded as, "hmmm so nobody read Macbeth then?" which you may feel is an insult to your intelligence but actually is just meant as a simple joke. I didn't say I'm pretty sure we were having fun, I said that it might be the case had it been a friend. Do try to quote me correctly. One last time I will say that personal attacks on me have no place in this thread. I note that you make no apology for attacking me from the safety of an anonymous name in a forum. Trust me being on stage, the 'safety of' as you said in an earlier posting, is not a safe place ... your heart, words and material are there for all to see whilst you,on the other hand, appear to be talking from behind a curtain where nobody can see you. As for bombing, everybody does. To repeat an earlier comment, you can't please all the people all the time. I don't mind if you don't like me, that's fine, you don't need to introduce yourself unless you wish to, and, since I am an atheist, I don't need Jesus or any other deity turning up either. While I respect religious beliefs greatly I don't have any myself. I wish you the best with your faith and hope that it gives you peace. I note that you also don't comment on the posting pointing out that you have a e-book on your site from another performer. I assume, from your stance here, that it is with permission. I'm sure it is of course. No need to reply to this unless you wish to. After all, it is also outside the scope of this thread. Yet again I may need Alfred from Batman Begins to remind me of why we fall. Very best wishes, Simon |
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bitterman Inner circle 1189 Posts |
Would that I had the time on a Friday night to point out all of your glaring inaccuracies; but I must go. I will how ever point out it was his father and not Alfred that first made the observation you are so fond of.
Jesus still loves you, I’m undecided. Your pal, Lance
If you are not cheating, you are only cheating yourself.
Dutchco is about to put out some new Ebook: DUTCHCO. Get 'em while you can. |
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Simon Lovell V.I.P. 506 Posts |
Yes but Alfred says the line after Wayne Manor is burned .. a more poignant moment for me in the movie.
I'll happily answer your "glaring inaccuracies" when you post them. After all, as I've said, I'm happy to aoplogize when I am wrong. Best wishes, Simon |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
I don't know the specifics of this; in fact, no one other than Simon really knows how he was approached and became involved in this project. But in having read the thread, he wrote the instructions to the book test and believes that the company producing it is trying to turn around.
I do know Simon! While on stage, almost anything goes, he is a comic and magic Wildman, but off stage he is a considerate, thoughtful, and very knowledgeable person. The Simon that I know would bend over backwards to help someone out, even a stranger, and he has! Outside of being a magician, gambling expert, and comedian, among other things, Simon is a gifted writer. When I had my first meaningful talk with him many years ago, he was writing for a gentleman whom I find intelligent and funny, and had a television show. Now, not having talked to anyone about this, so my statement here is purely supposition, but having gleaned a bit of information from the posts in this forum, Simon was contacted by MM, they probably inferred that they knew they had a negative image, but were trying to turn it around. They had an effect that they would like the writer, Simon, to write up the instructions for. Simon, who is very busy with his own projects, did this, believing the information he was told. Not having seen the book test, I cannot and will not make the assertion that it is a rip off (I made that mistake a year ago based on other's information, and was wrong). It is easy for us, as those who are intimately familiar with this effect to come to that conclusion after hearing just a few words of the methodology. This is our stock and trade, we are mentalists. Simon is not a mentalist, he is very familiar with magical methods. In fact, our last conversation involved a particular item that was marketed by a different dealer last year. He has not heard of the effect (why would he, he is not haunting shops buying effects, he has his own). When I described the effect, Simon went on about the history of the thing, back almost 100 years. So it is not surprising to me that Simon would know the history of the general method, but not associate it directly with the MOABT in other than it was similar in methodology based on the source. (Why would Simon know? He does not use it.) Let me put it this way, if this is a rip off, it is my opinion that Simon is a victim of this situation. He was contacted and asked to write the instructions for this, not knowing the true situation. I know it is easy to jump to conclusions and many of us here do rather quickly. But if you read what Simon has actually said here, and if this is truly a rip off of Ted’s work, then Ted has a valid complaint against MM, but so does Simon. Tony Iacoviello |
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Simon Lovell V.I.P. 506 Posts |
Tony,
Thank you for your reasoned and well said comments. You have made me feel that not everybody here wants to throw me to the wolves (having just suffered a bad dog bite on my face earlier this week that's the last thing I want!) and see me ripped to pieces for simply making my living as a writer and performer. I have done several DVD projects with MM and have always tried very hard to both credit history and credits for any effects that were not mine. When the originator or family/owner of effect have been living I have also tried very hard to get permission from them. If there has ever been doubt in my mind the effect and/or project has been shelved (in one case after a very expensive filming session of three days). Im not saying that MM is perfect, nor am I saying that I am; simply that I'm trying to do my best to do the right things here. But, then again, who (human on the planet) is perfect? Mistakes are made, we can only do our best to correct them. As I've said many times ... if I've made a mistake here then I'll happily apologize. Hope to see you again very soon, Best wishes, Simon |
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The Hitchhiker Regular user England 150 Posts |
I have your Million Dollar Card Magic DVD and can confirm you credit everyone.
Jason. |
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Simon Lovell V.I.P. 506 Posts |
Thanks Jason - I do try!
Very best wishes, Simon |
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qichi Regular user Los Angeles, CA 123 Posts |
Same as the whole wikipedia scare you all went through
WHO'S GOING TO FIND THIS STUFF UNLESS THEY'RE LOOKING FOR IT forest through the trees for ****s sake
"There is no art: things are made for use." Antonin Artaud
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LightbulbSun New user 18 Posts |
I don't want to say anything about the rip off thing but I think the real problem is that, even if people don't buy it, the next time you perform a book test they think "oh it's only a trick, you can buy this on amazon". even if they don't know the method or think of the wrong method fascination will be destroyed.
What the eye see and the ears hear, the mind believes.
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Just an aside: don't know thr truth of the matter or what really went down - but observing the way Simon took time to come here, give an explanation, never lost his temper, has been professional about everything he has posted, apologized if he was in the wrong... (when compared to many others in similar spats around here who lose it and go wild) - this likely reflects how he is outside of the Café - just a speculation - but I will say personal attacks off topic don't seem appropriate for this thread...
Other aside: it is indeed sad to see this on Amazon - but most specs will think anything is a trick or gimmicked book unless it is presented properly. Has anyone actually bought this booktest and compared it to MOABT? I thought this was were if it was deemed a total rip-off, the whole community would be up in arms and the books all banned from reputable magic dealers... but it hasn't happened in this case? I wish peace and happiness to all - and everyone's actions will likely catch up with them (good and bad)!
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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