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Eddie Garland Inner circle Hells Kitchen, New York City 4207 Posts |
Thread is not so heavy...
Captain you Kid yourself. I honestly felt no "fight mode" at all, only offered a different opinion and yet you felt justified to question Losander's originality as well as even mine? Have I made a claim to originality ever? I mean look at ME Smarter folk than me know the true history of this table and they know that the credit belongs to Tommy Wonder and Losander with that gimmick. They might be even quicker than me to evaluate it as a knock off. Floating tables existed before the Losander but not that method of floating them. Chill, enjoy your table friend. It is just not for me based on some crazy coup coup ethics thing that I feel. Don't let it hang you up, float your table high but do let a fellow Café member express a humble opinion. I do have an honest suggestion for the creator of these tables...do try and "reinvent the wheel", climb off of Losander's shoulders and make me something else that floats. Another object, a haunted antique children's chair, a rocking horse...something. I'll buy that product...you will be renowned as the guy who makes the flying antique Rocking Horse that looks really heavy. Peace Carolina Captain Kid. |
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1906Alpha1906 Special user North Cacky Lack 516 Posts |
Ok Eddie. Thanks.
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1906Alpha1906 Special user North Cacky Lack 516 Posts |
THIS POST IS WRITTEN IN A LIGHT-HEARTED SPIRIT SO READ IT IN A LIGHT TONE:
Well...I guess I have held off long enough, seeing as I don't like to get into these "debates", but I will say just a couple of things, and leave it at that. First, the gimmick is not the same. The other tables rise from the performer standing behind the table, mine are from the side. There is a major difference there, which in turn makes for certain that there are no similarites in the gimmicks, not one bit. I have never seen one of the other tables in person, so I have no idea how they operate, but seeing as how my connection is with the table, there isn't a possible way it could even be similar. SO, SHADOW, there is nothing STOLEN here. It's a totally different concept, but you probably never even watched close enough to realize that, but rather jumped on the "lets get him" train. To each his own. There are a multitude of other tables that actually mimmick the moves with the turns, the showing of the 180 degree turn looking under the table. My table is not designed to do that, which was purposely done to avoid this such topic. They are totally different operations as I have heard from people who own both. My table, I will admit, has certain limitations on things. Why would you want to buy a table and copy the performance anyhow? The tables designs are not even close looking to any other tables on the market, so that theory is out on that. The candlestick option is actually being pulled, and another option will be available. I will be the first to MAN UP about that part and my mistake (which most wouldn't do), that I thought it was nice to use, but at the same time, the candlestick doesn't tilt - Limitations. But its not available any longer. Overall, its totally different, different method, and there's nothing the same about it that only its a table that floats. So, here comes the roll of comments after me, right? So be it. Just thought I would chime in before it got a little ugly, which is not the point. The point is, just ask me about it via PM. If you have something personal to say to me, then say it to me, not to everyone else. Thanks for listening. AGAIN, THIS IS A LIGHT-HEARTED POST, SO READ IT WITH A LIGHT TONE. |
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The Shadow Knows New user Parts Unknown 23 Posts |
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On 2007-07-10 12:32, 1906Alpha1906 wrote: MagicSax, Things don't have to get ugly. The Shadows job is simply to bring truth into the light. The Shadow thanks you for discontinuing the Candle. BUT... he is also quite confused about your statement above. If you claim to have never seen a Losander Table then how can you also say that the gimmicks are different????? Are you saying the gimmick that makes the Candle work is not the same as the one that makes Losanders Box work??? Can you tell us where you got your inspiratation for the design of the table from????? Can you show me any floating table that looked like Losanders before he debuted this look? Can you tell me how it came to be that your routine mimmicks Losanders routine so closely? So if I take a losander and start the routine from the side instead of the back its a different prop???? The Shadow Knows |
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1906Alpha1906 Special user North Cacky Lack 516 Posts |
Well, thanks Shadow *smile*
I can say that the gimmicks are different because the people that have purchased my table, and own one of his tables have told me so, that is why I know. I have only seen other tables via video, and looking at how they are "floating" its obvious there is a difference. I don't even know how they are connected to the table. I have seen some via video that look like a ma***t may be the attachement, but I have no idea, and I choose to leave it that way. I don't need to know, I don't want to know. I just thought it through what was the best way for me. The box, I don't know. Again, I have never seen it, so I have no idea. There are several different ways to accomplish something, but which one you choose is up to the person I guess, but again, I dunno about that one. I've never seen the table performed live or been anywhere close to one. I came up with my own designs. I am a woodworker and build furniture also, so having an open mind about "how things should look" is part of the process. How do I take this pile of wood, and make something with it. My tops used to be Octagonal like a stop sign, but then moving it around became an issue, so I scratched it. Next I had a square top - looked AWEFUL, so I scratched it, then I trimmed it down and rounded the edges, ok, but not the best, then I received an email from a "well-known" about a particular style look. After a modification or 2, it came to be. for the legs, every house has a flat foundation to build on, so there you have that. Building around that is where things take time. I literally trashed (threw away) many different ideas. Some worked, some didn't. The designs were solely from trial and error, just like everything else. I actually had between 15 - 20 different looks, and just narrowed it down to keep my sanity. *smile*(which you probably don't think I have anyway huh? *haha*) My routine - you have never seen, only seen specific clips *smile* "So if I take a losander and start the routine from the side instead of the back its a different prop???? " No, you have a choice. |
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The Shadow Knows New user Parts Unknown 23 Posts |
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On 2007-07-10 15:38, 1906Alpha1906 wrote: The gimmick used for your candle and the handsfree handling is the same as Losanders Box. What a coincidence that you discovered a way to do it the same way Losander does? The tables have the spindle on them with a table top with corners removed... just like Losanders...WOW... another incredible coincidence! You ask people to look under the cloth just like Losander does....your cloth has the tassles on it like the deluxe losander in his promo shots.... more coincidences? You should be buying lottery tickets. I don't need to see your entire act... your video clips have enough moves in them to scream LOSANDER! To top it all off... you reverse engineer a project that MAY infringe on Losanders rights and you don't take the time to confirm one way or another how Losanders gimmick works so you don't infringe on his work???? How does that saying go? Looks like a Losander, floats like a Losander, Quacks like a Losander.... ITS A LOSANDER! If you really expect us to believe your view points you will have to come up with something better than a series of incredible coincidences that explain how you ended up with a Losander by accident. The Shadow Knows |
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Eddie Garland Inner circle Hells Kitchen, New York City 4207 Posts |
It's true, it is not merely about a table design here but the structure of a routine as well, the very moves in your video are those of Losander...and let me just check...nope...He is not dead.
The gift of delicately peeking under the cloth with the spectator and a thousand other nuances is what you purchase with the Losander. Certainly you make the routine your own but you must know that when you and the spectator are eye to eye underneath the table, in that magic moment...you have Losander to thank. Gobs of "His" touches like that...His touches we see you doing with your tables. His touches that you are actively selling. His name is synonymous with this effect. Don't think of it as merely offering us an option on a prop like a different cellphone design, see it as the stealing of a specific theatrical piece of theater. I know you understand this. |
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1906Alpha1906 Special user North Cacky Lack 516 Posts |
Ok, Shadow, how would you know if my candle was the same? I don't know if its the same. I don't have to come up with anything. You asked, and I told you the truth, so there you have it. You have the choice to believe it or not, and obviously you don't, so that again is your choice. But, you will find a way to turn it around, so I guess there is no reason to go on with you about it. No matter what I say, it doesn't matter, so be it. You want an argument that I won't give. Think what you want, that's fine. Whatever....
Eddie - Ok, if that's how its seen by you, then that's fine. As I said, I am done with chatting about it. I think the damage has been done enough here because now you are getting a little personal by calling me a thief, and that I don't take lightly. I can understand where you both are coming from on this, and I respect your thoughts from one person to another, and your decisions on how you feel. You have every right to feel how you feel, and that is free-will. That I can respect Now its time I go grab a Coke, or should I have a Pepsi? no, how about a sprite or a 7up? Naw, too shallow, I need Miller lite, well, maybe a Budlight. |
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The Shadow Knows New user Parts Unknown 23 Posts |
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On 2007-07-10 17:31, 1906Alpha1906 wrote: MagicSax, It is not I who turn things around. I state a fact and you put a spin on it. Anyone at all who knows the Losander Table knows how your candle works. Its not rocket science. Do you want me to PM you with the exact method? Yes.. lets please go on about it. If I am wrongly accusing you then you should clear your name and answer specifics. Prove me wrong and I will apologize and retract all statements. Fasten your seat belt boys and girls. Its going to get fun real soon. No guessing ... just facts headed our way. The Shadow Knows |
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The Shadow Knows New user Parts Unknown 23 Posts |
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On 2007-07-10 15:38, 1906Alpha1906 wrote: Magic Sax, You say you don't want to know what method Losander uses. Why wouldn't you want to know? I think you need to know before you can defend your product as not being a copy. How can we trust your opinion if you don't know how Losanders works? If you found out its different then you could really shut me up with that bit of info. But what if you found out that Losanders Box or Candle worked using the exact same method as you use? Would you then say that you had indeed copied his method if even by accident? Would you admit then that it is HIS method and should not be included in your product? The Shadow Knows |
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Eddie Garland Inner circle Hells Kitchen, New York City 4207 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-10 17:31, 1906Alpha1906 wrote: Don't take it personally please, I am not calling you a thief but be assured that Losander is being robbed with every purchase of these other tables. I think you have made an honest mistake in offering another artists routine for sale. When you finish the haunted floating doll house I'll certainly order...(The one where the windows and doors fly suddenly open and then slowly close, lights flicker?)...you will be known for creating that instead. Believe me. You will also feel protective of the effect. |
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The Shadow Knows New user Parts Unknown 23 Posts |
Eddie,
It will be interesting if Magic Sax responds or not. They say " when you have no good response then maybe NO response is best" and that may be the path he chooses. It would be a shame if he didn't respond as that may be seen as an admission of something or an unwillingness to clear things up. I'd hate for him to think its personal. Maybe others can help convince him otherwise. Maybe he should shop his product around to reputable dealers and see if they will sell them for him or if they will also say.." Its a losander copy" When others tell him maybe he won't think its us getting personal. For now lets say the multiple duplications is a freak of coincidences and not theft... is it too much to ask someone to do some research on a new product to confirm its new before the try and market it???? Many businesses face this on a daily basis. They think they have invented a new product only to find .... Its been done and someone else beat them to it. A litte research would have saved a lot of hassle. If he really doesn't know if the candle gimmick is the same and if his infrindges on Losanders then maybe those Café Members out there who have a Losander Table with the box can PM him and tell him what is used in the Losander Table/Box combo, then he will know it is the same gimmick exactly. You will be doing Losander know harm by telling Magic Sax how the box works ( in a PM ) as he will be learning nothing new. The Shadow Knows |
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The Shadow Knows New user Parts Unknown 23 Posts |
What as great idea it was to photograph tables outside in a garden setting. It really makes them look nice and much better than an indoor shot. You can see how nice the photos look here http://www.magicsax.com/FloatingTablePage1/Tables.html
These photos have only been online for a short while and for some reason I couldn't cast aside the feeling I had seen that those shots long before. How was that possible??? Had anyone else EVER taken photos of their table outside before???? For that matter has anyone really ever taken photos of any of their production magic items in a garden setting outdoors before? Hmmmmm Here is a photo of one of Losanders Tables from about 2 years ago taken outdoors in a nice garden setting. ( used then on Losanders website ) Of course this had NO influence on the fact that a table that looks like a losander and floats like a losander is now posed in a garden setting like a losander? The coincidences keep stacking up. Its getting more an more difficult to believe the Losander had nothing to do with the design and production of the magicsax table as Magic Sax claims. http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z232/......hoto.jpg The Shadow Knows |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
"Shadow" I think that it is pretty clear the tables in question are a complete rip off of the Losander tables. What if someone built a similar table for their own use and didn't sell it? Say I've never seen a Losander table in person. All I know is what I've read and seen on this and Losander's site. If I wanted to try it out(not saying I would), do you think that would be ok?
Micheal Leath |
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The Shadow Knows New user Parts Unknown 23 Posts |
Micheal,
You ask a very interesting question. I would think that if a person built their own and used it to perform and were to be paid for that performance then that would be unfair to the creator of the effect. As Eddie stated earlier Losander not only created a gimmick but a performance, the look of the table , the handling and the routine. These are all things that say Losander. Taking them and reverse-engineering the gimmick ( even though ) you have not seen the gimmick directly is still taking something that belongs to another. Personal use and non-commercial use may fall into a different category as it does with music. If someone downloads a song from the net ( legal in some countries and illegal in others ) and uses it for personal use then that is one thing that copywrite owners mostly overlook. If that person takes that music and redistributes it for profit/sale ( as Magic Sax is doing with the Losander Table copies on his site ) that that is where the Shadow and most others in Magic have a problem. Using the music example once more I'll ask Magic Sax if it'd be ok to distribute a recording for sale of another artists song. He could say..." I sang the song myself and added some new words and I never saw the real band in person ( even though I viewed the video a thousand times ) so that means I didn't copy their song." but I doubt he'd think that was ok. It seems to be ok with a magic routine though???? Thankyou for your comment that you also feel that the tables are " a complete ripoff" . I think most others would also agree. Magic Sax has quit responding and I suspect its because he's out of gas in the defence department. He probably has a lot of hard work and money invested in these tables and won't admit they ARE a ripoff and I can understand him sticking to his guns in that matter. If I had a fortune tied up in fake Rolexs I'd probably try to defend my position as well to save some money but eventually my conscience would make me admit they are a ripoff and I should swallow the pill and give them up. He should also understand that we should not be expected to play along and look the other way when we know it is a rip off of Losanders Table. Can we hear from others????? Rip off of Losanders effect/table or not? ( and why ) Let us know so MagicSax doesn't think its a handful of people in a personal attack on him. I'll start.... The Shadow Knows.....its a RIPOFF. Anybody else???? All opinions welcomed. Facts..not flames please. The Shadow Knows |
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hendejm New user NY,NY 18 Posts |
Ripoff!!!!
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Eddie Garland Inner circle Hells Kitchen, New York City 4207 Posts |
Let us not forget the original Café pitch for these tables...
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On 2007-07-04 10:19, CaptainKid wrote: Is Losander to consistently receive the fuzzy end of the lollipop here, even with his rebate? Nice. Just Think folks...wrap your head around the above and do what is right. |
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The Shadow Knows New user Parts Unknown 23 Posts |
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On 2007-07-11 17:03, Eddie Garland wrote: Yes... lets ask Losander to eat $500 so some knockoffs can be sold. No wonder its been quiet from the Knockoff camp lately. The Shadow Knows |
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DanielSteep Inner circle 1409 Posts |
Wow I couldent agree with hendejm any more!
This is deff a set of rips, and something should be done about it. But as long as ppl keep buying the 'jerks' will keep getting away with cashing in on others ideas. I have been around 2 or 3 different tables and can tell just by looking at pictures that they are for surely ripoffs. |
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The Shadow Knows New user Parts Unknown 23 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-10 20:35, Eddie Garland wrote: Eddie speaks well but lets take a look into the past and see what Luna ( Losanders wife) had to say in a past thread regards respecting the effect/routine. Well said Luna! "Luna Shemada here. Losander is my husband and CREATOR of this effect. Sure there have been floating tables around in the past like the hand on top method and other various mechanical moving tables, he's not claiming to be the inventor of the floating table BUT there has never been a table that floats like Losander's. This is his sole invention. The movements and range and abilities and method. A lot of hard work and years of developement and process and protypes went into this masterpeice. You don't think he's tried to build it out of every available material out there? We still build proto types and continue to try and find ways to improve the Table, we also do custom pieces as well. Because anyone that has seen our Tables and owns one knows it's not only beautiful, it's a work of Art!!! It is. I know they are expensive but they are worth it! We will not put out cheap products or lower our standards just to cater to yahoos who don't even have the decency to respect the ethics of this profession we love so much. Oh and by the way, if you buy one, you not only get an awesome prop, you are also paying for the RIGHTS to perform it! That is already worth more than the prop itself. Come up with your own idea and build it, build it with the hand on top method, find another way. We can't stop you. Be creative, that's fine. Just be respectful to those that have the goodness to share something special, like this effect with the rest of the magic world. Be grateful for his inspiration. He is such a kind and special person, a real Magician ! It's not just about the money you know..... think about it." Luna Making any sense Thomas? The Shadow Knows |
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