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NJJ
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What are your thoughts on the exposure of cheating moves for public education?
Jeremy Brown
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You will get a few different opinions on that question.
My definition of exposure-readily available for anyone to learn.(books, videos, etc.)

My thoughts are that "the real work" should not be exposed.

The moves that have been exposed are not in my opinion the "real work". Yes they can get the money, but no they are not the latest and greatest. Why? They have been exposed and people have come up with new and better things.

My thoughts are, underground techniques that have not seen the surface of exposure(real work) should not be exposed.

In that case they wont be, as long as those who have been intrusted with the the real work don't go off making exposure materials to get a little bit of fame.

Jeremy Brown

PS. Keep in mind my humble definitions of the words "real work" and "exposure" are most likely different than everyone else's.
Pavloter
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Well thing is you can expose all you want, but sucker born every minute. Bottom deal is exposed enough, but still highly effective, when executed well.
Pavlo
Paul H
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But only in soft games these days I believe.

Regards,

Paul H
Unknown419
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I know one thing for sure, this exposure is making a new breed of cheaters who will far exceed the cheaters of yester-year; they are already catching up to me and passing me by.

This may sound funny to ya'll but the hustlers who I be around guard the secrecy of the movie SHADE being out like it's the ultimate secret of all time (in other words to them it's just like they found a gold mine).

99% of them know nothing about all the greats of which we speak about daily.


Doc
Expertmagician
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Doc,

I'm curious about your opinion.....while move execution and gaffs are important and critical. I believe that the real secret of a hustler's "advantage play" is psychology, timing and misdirection. I am including in this discussion the concept of team play and collusion as well.

Of course, all of the above are important, but, I'm curious about your views....

What are your thoughts ?
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Logan Five
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No need to show and tell everything. For example, when I am talking about false cuts..I'll do a hands to the table false cut a few times and then show the deck in order i.e no cards have changed positions and then, just move on to some other " hops ".

I think a good gambling demo presentation is a mix of showing how something is done like a concept. Then showing something that might be an " optical illusion " like an overhand false shuffle in which there is no point in showing exactly how it's done. They know it's false because you told them that is a false shuffle and you'd show them the deck is in new deck order.

My focus is not totally on the education of the spectator, but rather the entertainment value of the show. Yes, education is a part of it, but so is telling a great gambling stories, and showing a skill display and keeping a high pace level for the show.

But I am still learning.
Self concept is destiny..
stoneunhinged
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Hmmm..."cheats" discussing the ethics of exposure. Cool.

Gruss,
Jeff
Expertmagician
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As you know many gambling expose's routines use both real technique. But, many claim to perform a sleight and actually use a different modus operandi.

I personally can't deal a center. But, many people who I show my center deal to think that I can Smile
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tommy
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It may caution the unwary who are innocent of guile, and it may inspire the crafty by enlightenment on artifice. It may demonstrate to the tyro that he cannot beat a man at his own game, and it may enable the skilled in deception to take a post-graduate course in the highest and most artistic branches of his vocation. But it will not make the innocent vicious, or transform the pastime player into a professional; or make the fool wise, or curtail the annual crop of suckers;

Erdnase
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magician8
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No matter how many times a move is explained, a sucker won't detect it when performed correctly.




A.S.E
sodman12
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raleigh
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Quote:
On 2007-04-13 16:49, Paul H wrote:
But only in soft games these days I believe.

Regards,

Paul H


Very true. And these are usually easy to find.
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
C. Loubard
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Magician8, I agree 100%. A sucker will not expect it when he/she should... magicians call it the off beat.

with or without teamplay, Expertmagician, you are spot on with the psycholgy, timing and misdirection.

stoneunhinged, I too am ready for cheats discussing exposure.
Ross W
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I'll take up the theme that I have launched in another thread that is also relevant here. Namely, my suspicion that genuine "gambling cheats" such as we "expose" hardly exist at all.

With that in mind, I think what we expose in "gambling demonstrations" is largely irrelevant as no one really uses these techniques in proper games.

You could argue, I suppose, that that makes it worse: that gambling demonstrations expose secrets that are only ever used by magicians. I wonder, though, if lay audiences make the connection?

It's down to the performer to construct a routine which looks like exposure but still entertains and mystifies.

Just as I wouldn't normally use The Ambitious Card as an opener (for, having demonstrated that the card can rise to the top at your will, then it's going to be tough to sell the idea that it's "lost in the deck" during your next trick), then I wouldn't do a dealing trick after demonstrating the second deal.

(Assuming of course, I can second deal, which I can't!)
Author.
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