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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Is it wise or unwise to learn two stacks? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

The Amazing Noobini
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Oslo, Norway
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When I first thought about the possibility of learning more than one stack, I quickly dismissed the idea fearing that learning one order would corrupt another.

Now I'm not at all sure that it would. There really isn't any reason why the brain shouldn't be able to separate two such systems the same way it can separate two languages although they both have words describing the same things. Or is there? Having just learnt the Aronson stack, I admit to a slight fear of messing with it after all.

It's just that I would have loved to know a stack one could get into from a new deck order, or more importantly, to get out of into either a new deck order or a 4 times Ace to King order, or an all red/all black order or something visual like that. Something that would still have me know the location of any cards, but without necessarily having Poker deals or Bridge deals or spelling effects that don't work in my language anyway.

What do you think?
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
JanForster
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Start to learn one stack; once you know your stack dead cold you still can decide to learn a second one (but why?). From new deck order you could use the Tamariz Stack. If you want special features you can of course create your own stack also. That makes sense if you haven't start to learn any stack by now. But you should always consider that your stack should look completely random.
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de
The Amazing Noobini
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I think I explained why. Sorry I will try to explain it better.

I do know a stack already: Aronson, but when I learnt that I failed to realize that Aronson had chosen away new deck order in favor of some other effects. I am less interested in these other built in effects. But I still love the Aronson stack.

There are many posts that I read before choosing the Aronson stack. However a lot of them seemed to have people who got upset that others would ask about which stack to learn. "Just pick one, they are all the same. And if you need to ask then you are simply too lazy to want to put in the work and is trying to come up with excuses to postpone it", the message seemed to be.

So I picked one at a whim. And then found that Aronson himself say that there is indeed important to pick one that suits your needs. So be it. The choices for me now are:

A. Learn a second stack in addition to the one I know.
B. Brainwash myself and replace the one I know with another one.
C. Forget about effects that are not built into the Aronson stack.

Just want to hear if people have any experiences in learning more than one. Any warnings about problems with that.

When starting this memorized deck stuff, it is all very confusing. The real strengths of each excisting system is very hazy. And making your own is pointless if you don't fully understand what the potential of it may be.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
churken
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Noobini,

It sounds as if you want to learn Mnemonica in addition to Aronson. I myself have thought about that on occasion, but always reject the idea due to the reasons you stated above. And I can't think of a reason that I personally want to get back to new deck order.

For you though, it sounds like you do want the ability to go back into new deck order. Therefore it makes more sense for you than it does for me.

I would suggest that you start learning the other stack and see how it feels to you. Just learn the first 10-20 cards and then devise a way to test yourself and see if you get confused. I do agree that it is like learning a new language and therefore should be possible.

In the meantime keep working with the Aronson Stack. You will find that a lot of effects you will do can be done with both stacks, so you are already ahead in that sense. The strengths of each stack become less hazy as you put them in to use.

Good luck. Let us know if it works.

Paul
The Amazing Noobini
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Thanks.

Yes, I need more experience with the stack I now know for sure. So I guess this is mostly a question out of curiosity.

I also have to admit that I enjoy learning sleights and other building blocks a lot more than I enjoy actually learning ready to use magic tricks.

If I do start on a second one I would probably make very sure that it is the one I want. Also there are stacks that aren't really full memorized stacks but rather a part of one or just a new deck faroed a certain number of times. (5 times still looks fairly random and is close to "home")
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Nick Pudar
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Noobini,
I too have thought about this before. I originally learned and used the Joyal Stack (for ease of learning). I then switched to the Aronson Stack for the built-in effects (which I still use from time to time). I have forgotten the Joyal Stack because I just don't work at it to keep it fresh.

If I do learn another stack, it will be the Aronson + 4 Outfaros. As you pointed out, it is close to home. Also, if a spectator really presses you to shuffle the deck, you can "shuffle very fairly and openly" by doing 4 Outfaros. (Of course, an obvious question is why not just fairly shuffle 8 times.)

Realistically, I probably won't spend the time though.

Nick
Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up.
www.stackview.com Version 5.0 is available!
The Amazing Noobini
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Hmmm. Realistically... I won't start memorizing a new stack for a while either. But it's an interesting subject.

I think it is very probably that I will memorize other deck orders in the future, but there needs to be some thought behind it and this requires a lot more experience for me with what I already have.

The slightly ironic situation now is that I have memorized an entire deck which at least sounds like a lot, yet I cannot remember a single memorized deck effect. I have logged down a few good ones in my notebook to help me remember, but so far none of them have stuck. I have such a hard time remembering stuff that doesn't come in the form of pictures.

So I suppose I will have to apply my feeble brain to that first. Smile

Thanks for your input on this gentlemen!
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
dannywhit
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Oak Ridge,TN
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How many card tricks does a person need to know? That is an excellent question for me considering that I am a card trick junkie. I believe I need to get some help or check into some kind of clinic. As far as stacked deck work goes I currently use the Tameriz stack, but now that I think about it in a real life performance situation I have never used an un opened brand new deck before either. The only advantage I can think of with being able to achieve stack order from a new unopened deck would not necessarily be for the performing magician, but could come in handy for the underground card cheat. Since I do not cheat at the card table I may have to go back and think again about my choice of stacks and if its the most practical choice for me.
JanForster
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I think you are right (except clinical treatment)... But if you know the Tamariz stack you should use it. Or create your own. To be honest I (as European!) use the Aronson stack since 12 years and see no reason to learn a different one. I still discover new features as the creator Simon Aronson does too if you see just his last book "Try the Impossible". And the feature of the Tamariz Stack to get into the stack
from new deck order by faros was (at least for me) never of any interest as I know that I never would use it in the real world performing. Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de
The Amazing Noobini
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Oslo, Norway
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I agree that getting into the stack order from a new deck order is less neccessary than what I originally thought, but I maintain that getting out into some sort of perfectly sorted order would be a great effect.

Having said that, there are probably easier ways of getting to that result than memorizing an entire second deck order, and since many great stack effects would destroy a stack anyway, it would be a shame to exclude those. Better then to change into a second already ordered deck perhaps, or one that is only a few shuffles or a color separation away from becoming one.

If one was to look for a deceptive looking order to move from into an ordered deck, then I guess Nick Pudar's StackView software would be an invaluable tool. If I understand it correctly, it can reverse faro for you and things like that. Or rather "inverse" faro that is. I suppose I have to whip my old PC back on it's feet soon. Smile
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
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