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Tod Todson Inner circle USA 1296 Posts |
Ok, I don't get something about this Mackie.
How can it's speaker be smaller, it's weight less, and it still produce 6x the wattage as the Roland Cube? I thought there was a direct correlation between output and these other factors?
Mystifier, Youth Speaker
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Very good question. I do not have the answer. Usually "watts" is somewhat meaningless. Espeically when it comes to equipment from no-name manufacturers or from mass-marketed manufacturers. Mackie is in not one of these.
From an audiophile standpoint, I would much rather listen to a 20 watt beautiful sound system than a 200 watt piece of junk. Usually with the 200 watt $100 stereo receivers, you cannot turn them up past 1/3 way or the distort to impressive degrees. they are useless at levels like that. a quality system might not get as loud but you can really turn it up all the way. again, I would not consdier mackie in this category compared to the other PA systems. I would be suspicisous though.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Michael Messing Inner circle Knoxville, TN 1817 Posts |
I have to update one of my earlier comments. I said I was unimpressed with the music reproduction of the Mipro MA-101. Tonight, I heard a lecturer using one and in a reasonably small room where the volume didn't have to be raised a lot, it did a better job of amplifying music than I remembered.
It's still more than what I would want to spend for a small system but I did want to correct my earlier comments. Michael |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
Regarding wattage and weight, and size.
There are not only multiple measurement systems for determining wattage, but there are different types of amplifiers, some of which weigh mere pounds put have imense power output. There are amplifiers of 'Type A', 'Type B', Type AB', MOSFET and there are new varieties of magnetic switching power supply amplifiers that feature very light weight, but extrememly high power output. Mackie is a common user of these newer high power, light weight amplifiers. As in all things audio, there are trade offs in each different type of power amplifier type. Generally, the light weight, high power amplifiers depend almost completely on the wall socket you plug them into for dealing with calls for excessive power. This means you can usually only run one of them on a single 15 amp circuit, and have nothing else on that circuit. In a smaller show where you may only have one amplifier in your rig, this may not be a problem. Many 'normal' amplifiers have huge power supplies and capacitors (something these new amps don't have...thus the very light weight) in them that would deal with large calls for output power, therefore you could have a few more of them on each 15 amp circuit. So......in answer to the question a few posts above, there is a correlation between the factors you mention ONLY if the amplifiers you're comparing are of the same type and design. This information is usually in the specs offered for each type of amplifier, the actual difference between each type is difficult to explain in a resonably short post, other than to say they are very different. |
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Tod Todson Inner circle USA 1296 Posts |
Uuuuh, are you saying I could potentially blow out the power in one of my customers houses with one of these? Not the kind of word-of-mouth I was looking for
Mystifier, Youth Speaker
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
I doubt a typical magician is capable of generating the power demands that would cause anybody any problems.
That's usually reserved for wailing rock singers, pounding kick drums, and screaming guitars......all running at around 115 db! I'd love to see your show if you're a magician who routinely blows breakers using a switching amp |
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TV Magic Pal New user Dogtown up in the 'Lou 62 Posts |
I have a great deal of experience with the new switching power supply style amps; Mackie uses them now because they bought out Ampeg who was the big innovator in the field. I spent about 7 years working for Ampeg as the service tech in charge of artist relations repairs... So I used to eat lunch with the guys that designed these things and was the first guy in their office complaining when something went wrong!
Generally you will not blow out the customers power with any small amplifier system. They are fused, after all! Catastrophic failure is a possibility, of course, but one that "bridges" (manages to get around the fuse) are the rarest of rare. So the chance is a slim one... your equipment is probably in more danger from their potentially non-code power lines than the other way around! Most PA systems are fused at 10A or less. For an example of one of these new style switching set-ups that is A) cheap, B) super lightweight and C) could stand in as an emergency PA system I suggest you look at a Crate Powerblock. Like all of these new style amplifiers they combine the rather amazing power supply with an amplifier IC to result in a very small, very light unit. Most medium to large music stores will have one laying around... Most of the units built with new power supply have been bass units; I am not sure what Mackie has put out since I left their employ in September.
Michael L.
Magic is a lie. It is our job to convince the audience to overlook the lie and our goal to make them embrace it. |
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Dan McLean Jr aka, Magic Roadie Special user Toronto, Canada 804 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-04-26 23:42, silverking wrote: Thanks, silverking! I didn't understand this difference, perhaps because I'd never heard it expressed so clearly. Cheers!
Dan McLean Jr
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-04-26 20:48, Karol Kool wrote: Somewhere in these pages I mentioned it. I have a 5.75" 180 watt speaker which was used in my son's car. It was an expensive speaker, he added to his hugh amplifier system he had in his car. We cold hear him coming home, several blocks away. Because he took the amplifier with him when I sold the car, I replaced those two powerful speakers with the original tinny sounding speakers. Each speaker has 180 watts capacity. I tried to used these with my 50 watt base ampliflier. At max amplification of 50 watts, there was very little movement in the cones of the amp. Voice in full volume was less than my speaking voice. Not enough power to mover the cones. Since I don't have the Mackie yet, I can't speak on what it sounds like. The speaker within the Mackie is of high quality 150 watts. AC power of the amp is need to move that speaker. Even though it is rated 150 wats, the most the speaker should be using is 100 watts of continous power. The Mackie has several safety feature to prevent blowing out the speaker and amplifer, if pushed with a preamp. On the speaker cone, there must be a special made material that is not normally found on standard speakers. This elastic material gives the cone more air pushing power, like large speakers where you can actually see those cones move. To do this with a small speaker, it has to be specially made, for this more pushing or movement of air from the speaker. When you see this movement you know more air is being pushed so it can travel further, in a specific direction. I am going with my gut and experience with speakers. I have a home theater, and I have sub woofers, wall vibrators, various (9) speakers sizes all to mix the outputing sound into a feel/hear the action on the screen. I have a special base amp just to push the subwoofer. No speaker is under 50 watts in a 20x 20 room, except for the wall vibrators, which have their own amp. Wattage, the power needed to move the cones, really has it's biggest effect on the base tones, because voice doesn't really have that "thumping musical beat" A rumble of lighting, an explosion, or sound or special FX, requires that low base, then the capability is there. Without music, then maybe the Mackie would not be my first choice. The Roland CM-30 may be a good second inexpensive choice, it has a lare 8" speaker that needs the 30 watts to move it. Again it is a guess, to move the same amount of air the Roland speaker moves with a smaller speaker like in the Mackie, it would appear one would need more pushing power, hence the higher wattage. I definately believe the smaller a speaker gets, the more power it need to move equal amount of air. There is a limit to how small before that lower deep base sounds are gone. This information on Mackie wattage came from the specifications sheet located on the http://www.Mackie.com web site. I hope this makes some sense. I tore apart my Floridia PAS 767 system to look at the speaker and even try to change it. The amp wasn't poweful enough for the better speaker, so I must live with the voice only sounding speaker. Several years ago, it was the only system with a wireless headset built in and small enough to be truly portable, now it has fallen to the way side with better sounding systems. (The quality of wireless also was an issue)
Dennis Michael
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TV Magic Pal New user Dogtown up in the 'Lou 62 Posts |
Wattage is not the power it takes to move cones! This is part of the marketing music equipment manufacturers feed you. Wattage is power created by DC... run DC through your speakers and see what happens! AC wattage is an incorrect term. You can draw some general conclusions from the information provided in these terms, but remember that as soon as you are speaking about Watts and not Volt-Amps you have left behind the proper terminology and are entering marketing, not science.
These speakers from your sons car: What impedance were they? What is your bass amplifier built to run? Changing the speaker load (impedance) effects the amount of output from an amplifier. Also, do not underestimate the importance of the enclosure, particularly in a bass application.
Michael L.
Magic is a lie. It is our job to convince the audience to overlook the lie and our goal to make them embrace it. |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Michael,
You are correct. AC in converted in DC by an electronic bridge with diaodes. What I was referring to is the ability of the ampliflier to handle the load to a 150 watt 8 oam speaker. Yes a DC battery could do it but it would drain the battery therefore aconstant AC current is required. My Bass amp, was designed for a guitar, which I tore apart to use with a set of wireless microphones. that unint was not designed for what I intended to use it for. The speaker was 8 ohms
Dennis Michael
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TV Magic Pal New user Dogtown up in the 'Lou 62 Posts |
No, a steady DC supply will trash a speaker. One of the worst things that can happen to an amplifier (a modern one; not a reliable tube amp... they destroy things in different ways) is for the output devices to short and send DC to the speakers. It fries the voice coil.
Which is always funny, but expensive.... Anyway, you can make AC from DC and DC from AC but sound is a waveform (even a constant tone) so it is most similar to AC. The only thing that amplifiers produce that is actually work (by the physics definition) and therefore measured by Watts is heat, but this is a useless by-product of the actual application. You really are reading way too much into Wattage ratings. If you don't believe me, next time you are at a music store put a "100 watt" tube amplifier next to a "100 watt" solid state amplifier and see which is loud and which makes your ears bleed when you stand if front of it.... If watts truly measure output there shouldn't be a difference, but there is.
Michael L.
Magic is a lie. It is our job to convince the audience to overlook the lie and our goal to make them embrace it. |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
There are numerous articles related to tube and transister amplifiers, each point to the tube being much better in quality, sound and reduction of the heat.
Yes, we are getting much to deep into the physics and science of what makes a speaker move. (Vibrate). What all this means or refers to is whether the 5.75" speaker of the 150 watt Mackie SRM150, will out perform an 6.5" 30 Watt speaker of the Roland CM-30 which is half the price.
Dennis Michael
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Regan Inner circle U.S.A. 5726 Posts |
Measuring or judging the efficiency of speakers is also another subject.
Mister Mystery
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
The roland cm-30 has a 6.5" 2-way speaker. Not an 8" speaker.
Neither PA will fill a ballroom with sound. both are good for small venues. If you're doing small kids shows, library, day care, classroom, both would be fine. I picked the Roland. Cheaper and recommended by Michael M. If you want to fill a gym with sound then get something meant for that. If you're doing a show that's outdoors. Get something for that. Driving a system like these at high volumes will make them sound "tinny" (mostly music) becuase the high frequencies will travel much better than the lower frequencies to the back of a room. If you want to push realistic sound thru an entire large auditorium/ballroom/gym then you NEED drivers (speakers) that can do that (such as 10", 12", 15"). It's simple physics. It's not some secret technology that's found in a small box. If you have no music, then the mackie might be just fine even for a gym but I'd rather have 2 rolands than 1 mackie for ease of listening on the audience. You can string the Rolands together for better coverage which is a significant concern.(probably doable with the mackies too but $$$). Unlike some of the lesser known brands, you will notice on the Mackie website they give very realistic expectations for that PA. I would use those same recommendations for any PA that is remotely the same size. This includes the Roland, the Mackie, the Paso50, etc. If you're new to all this, and losing sleep over what to buy and you're first thinking of small to medium sized kids shows I would get: 1 roland 1 cord and mic and mic stand for emergencies or for spectator voices 1 gim-crack (mic holder) for emergencies 1 wireless countryman (or audio-technica earset) not a whole lot of money spent. the wireless could be used for any other system you buy (or to hook into your customer's PA) as can the wired setup. nothing wasted.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Frank your logic is good. I also corrected my post above on the size of the Roland Speaker.
The 2 Roland CM-30s are about $350 and One Mackie SRM 150 is $300. For smaller shows, I really don't need a 2nd speaker, or at least at this point I don't. Maybe one of my Fender Passport 150 speakers will work if I need a 2nd speaker.
Dennis Michael
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Since the Mackie SRM-150 is delayed again in shipping, I will order it when they decide to stock the local dealers. In the meantime, I am trying out the Roland CM-30. I ordered that today.
Dennis Michael
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Michael Messing Inner circle Knoxville, TN 1817 Posts |
When you get your Roland, please post your comments on it. I'm curious to see if others like it as much as I do!
Michael |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
I want to compare my Fender 250, my Fender 150, my Flordia PAS 767, the Roland CM-30, and the Mackie, all to see the difference.
Dennis Michael
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Rodney Palmer Inner circle 1317 Posts |
Thanks to all of you who gave me direction in a small sound system. I am Happy to report that my Roland CM-30 worked really well for me this past week. I had 2-school show assemblies (200-students each) 1 Library Show (60-Guests) and I performed two Birthday Parties this weekend. All I have to say is that the Roland was a very GOOD Choice and I will stick with this for awhile. I ended up purchasing an Audio Technica Receiver and Headset for this system and so far all is well. Thank You Dennis for the recommendation of that set. I still would prefer an all-in-one beacause of the extra handling of the receiver, stand, headset, etc.
Here is a TIP for FREE, if you have in your area a JoAnn's Fabric store they carry a perfect case for the Roland to fit in. It is a Yarn Rolling Storage Bag and it comes in a Neon Type Green Color for $ 30.00. This fits the Roland, cords, mic, receiver,Ipod, and all cables and accessories perfectly. And it is on rollers. Sorry I do not have a direct link on their website, I looked for the product and it is possible that is might be carried In Store Only. Rodney
"Creating Memories That Last A Lifetime"
In order to keep "MAGIC ALIVE" Please become a Mentor to a Young Person. |
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