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Thomas Wayne
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Edh,

Go on eBay and wade through the multitudes of unknown opportunists who are offering to teach the latest trick by Criss Angel or David Blaine, or David Copperfield, or whoever, and then come back and tell me we don't have enough of this already, and that we [b]need]/b] "montemagic" to re-sell the magic community a trick they already have. Complacency is what makes this crap so easy for monte and guys like him to get away with.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

TW
(PS: now you're privy)
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
ChristopherM
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I'll stick to the Paul Curry original, thanks. That's all I'll say on this.
scorch
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Quote:
On 2007-05-11 04:11, montemagic wrote:
I am selling this to people that do not already perform it. If you don't know the method, you don't know the secret.....


You miss the point entirely, and that is that Paul Curry's OOTW is not yours to expose or exploit (as least, not unless you have made any substantial improvements to it, which you have not). And further, it is highly unethical of you to market such a clean-looking OOTW as an impromptu effect, when it clearly is not impromptu. The fact that you accomplished the setup in a previous effect does not change the basic fact that your supposedly new OOTW effect is no different whatsoever than the original version by Paul Curry. You have not improved or changed the basic method, you only have a suggestion of how to set it up in a previous effect.

And as far as the quality of the material is concerned (since you posted presumably to get feedback), my opinion apart from you poor ethics in marketing this effect as your own, is that the material is weak. Your red-black face up slop shuffle/cull won't fly by a careful observer, and the whole idea seriously compromises the triumph effect part of it. It is not a bad idea to set up one effect in the process of another, but in this case you end up with a fairly weak triumph routine in order to do it. It's too high a price to pay just to do the original Out of This World without a more deceptive cull or deck switch. My preference would be to do a mugh stronger triumph routine, and follow it with a TRULY impromptu OOTW effect such as Harry Lorayne's. Both effects would be stronger than what you have offered here.

I think it's important that if you're going to offer up something to the magical community, especially if it's work based on a classic effect, what you offer should represent an improvement. This clearly does not offer any improvement on either the triumph plot or the OOTW plot.
Harry Lorayne
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You're right, of course, Scorch, but I think it's also apropo to this discussion that when I originally taught Out Of This Universe (decades ago)I also taught to set up during a preceding effect. What in the world is new about that?I'm speaking of no one in particular, but I am continually amazed at both the lack of knowledge, the fact that they DON'T KNOW they "lack knowledge," and the chutzpah of some of the younger people in magic. HL
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Greg Arce
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Quote:
On 2007-05-12 15:54, Harry Lorayne wrote:
You're right, of course, Scorch, but I think it's also apropo to this discussion that when I originally taught Out Of This Universe (decades ago)I also taught to set up during a preceding effect. What in the world is new about that?I'm speaking of no one in particular, but I am continually amazed at both the lack of knowledge, the fact that they DON'T KNOW they "lack knowledge," and the chutzpah of some of the younger people in magic. HL


Mr. Lorayne, as usual, speaks nothing but truth. Smile

Greg
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montemagic
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Quote:
On 2007-05-12 15:05, scorch wrote:
You miss the point entirely, and that is that Paul Curry's OOTW is not yours to expose or exploit (as least, not unless you have made any substantial improvements to it, which you have not). And further, it is highly unethical of you to market such a clean-looking OOTW as an impromptu effect, when it clearly is not impromptu. The fact that you accomplished the setup in a previous effect does not change the basic fact that your supposedly new OOTW effect is no different whatsoever than the original version by Paul Curry. You have not improved or changed the basic method, you only have a suggestion of how to set it up in a previous effect.

And as far as the quality of the material is concerned (since you posted presumably to get feedback), my opinion apart from you poor ethics in marketing this effect as your own, is that the material is weak. Your red-black face up slop shuffle/cull won't fly by a careful observer, and the whole idea seriously compromises the triumph effect part of it. It is not a bad idea to set up one effect in the process of another, but in this case you end up with a fairly weak triumph routine in order to do it. It's too high a price to pay just to do the original Out of This World without a more deceptive cull or deck switch. My preference would be to do a mugh stronger triumph routine, and follow it with a TRULY impromptu OOTW effect such as Harry Lorayne's. Both effects would be stronger than what you have offered here.

I think it's important that if you're going to offer up something to the magical community, especially if it's work based on a classic effect, what you offer should represent an improvement. This clearly does not offer any improvement on either the triumph plot or the OOTW plot.



You can tell me that this will not pass by a careful observer all day long, and I will repeat to you that it has worked flawlessly for me for years. I also make no claim that Out of This World is my routine. NEVER ONCE HAVE I SAID THAT. I did however conceive the use of the slop shuffle in its performance 100% on my own. Somehow that seems to make me unknowledgeable and ignorant. I was too poor to buy all the books and videos out there and often had to come up with solutions on my own. I spoke with Lorayne via PM and he told me that the slop shuffle has been used before to set up decks, he didn't say whether or not it had been published with Out of This World. I have no doubt that there is some other magician out there in the world performing this exact routine that he/she put together on their own. But despite all that has been said here, no one has pointed me to its publication.

While you feel this routine will not work, I assure you it is because you are watching it on TV. Interacting with and misdirecting people is much different than misdirecting a camera. If you understand the basics of misdirection and performing this will make sense when you think about it (and I am sure you do).

I do feel that this is an improvement from the gaffed methods, deck switching methods, or the only other separation method I have studied which was Lennart Greens (for a different effect). For me there is nothing more powerful than performing this effect with the spectators cards. In all of the people I have contacted and all of the people here, no one has mentioned a publication with this method being used. I make no claim that it doesn’t exist, but I will share a real workable routine with fellow magicians and not feel bad about that.

Furthermore I did in fact post this here to discuss it with people, however there are many people here that seem to just want to wave their ego around at you, and those people are completely useless in a forum such as this (and in the world in general). If you noticed the section of the café you strolled into it is not for reviews, I simply mentioned this was going to be available to those that were interested, but ultimately wanted to talk about the effect. Other know-it-alls made this into an advertisement of sorts without using tact, kindness, or intelligence. Perhaps it was my wording that led them to this, but it was their social skills that set the stage. There is nothing I can do about that. Please note that you have problems with me “exposing” Paul Curry’s effect… look back through this thread and see who has exposed the method in their rants, and they didn’t even give Mr. Curry the respect to do it in the Secret Sessions.

Ultimately because of the nature of a “FEW” members of the café there will always be discussions such as this one, but more importantly there will be those that learn the effect, and love it as I have. There are a lot of great level-headed honest people here, and those are the ones I come to chat with. Both good and bad opinions are fine, it’s how great you need to make yourself feel when you share you opinions that label your character.
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Thomas Wayne
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Unfortunately, monte remains convinced he is right, and [apparently] righteous, even though plenty of well-versed magicians (including Harry Lorayne himself) have pointed out the error of his ways.

Of course, we must remember that none of us - with the notable exception of 'MagicMarker' - have "used our brains". In the same way that monte takes the polite response of his audience as proof that he's performed a miracle, so he ALSO takes the single positive response in a sea of negative posts as an indication that he's actually doing the right thing. I believe the technical term for that sort of irrational distortion is cognitive dissonance.

But Mr. Lorayne phrased it best when he described this as the "chutzpah of some of the younger people in magic". Well said indeed.

TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Thomas Wayne
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I just want to point out one last thing. In his initial post, monte claimed: “This effect can be done with a borrowed deck of cards, that the spectators shuffle themselves.” After watching his carefully edited video, I wrote:

Quote:
On 2007-04-27 19:54, Thomas Wayne wrote:
Borrowed and shuffled deck... shuffled right before the edited-out cull, that is.

TW


MONTE RESPONDED:

Quote:
On 2007-04-27 22:02, montemagic wrote:
An interesting and completely inaccurate assumption. I assure you that you see exactly what the spectators see. It's something Eugene Burger taught me.




As it turns out, I was exactly correct in my assumption, and this was BEFORE I saw the full length 'demo'. Here is how the entire effect runs, from beginning to end:

Monte first has the two spectators each shuffle the deck [we are never told if it is borrowed, but I don't think so] - under the guise of wanting to "see how they shuffle". He then has a card selected and replaced in the deck. He fumbles with the deck a little (doing what I assume is a control to the top via double-cut) and then riffle shuffles the deck, followed by an overhand shuffle – all the while being careful to retain the selection on top of the deck. Now, he returns to the 'theme' of discussing how various people shuffle, and then continues his tale of how ‘he was with a large group of people and, you know, how he likes to watch people shuffle and see how they shuffle…’ Whereupon monte begins a face-up (!) slop shuffle, going through the entire deck in a manner that is distinctly non-random and pretty carefully supervised [by monte].

>>>For those of you unfamiliar with the slop shuffle, it’s a handling that superficially appears to have you mixing the deck up in a haphazard fashion, finishing with some cards randomly face up and some cards randomly face down throughout the deck. Done with a face-up deck and searching through the cards as you “shuffle” has the very distinct look of an open cull, which it IS in this case. I personally don’t think this would fool many people over the age of 4.<<<

Because the face-up slop shuffle/cull takes some bit of time, and monte’s full attention, there is an awkward lull in the action, during which monte’s patter consists of discussing how everyone was drinking, and…

“and, you know, I wasn’t paying attention and somebody took the cards and they started shuffling like this. Yeah… cards…well, again, I wasn’t paying attention, so I didn’t know this was going on behind my back. …you know it kinda happens like this… when you do tricks…card tricks for people who are drinking and things like that, you get little weird situations like this…”

This is the gist of the patter, but the actual slop shuffle/cull required 24 seconds – according to my stopwatch – during which time monte’s attention must be primarily focused on turning all the red cards one direction and all the black cards the opposite direction. 24 seconds is a very long time to devote to only giving your audience the slightest bit of attention while you are busily concentrating on arranging the deck right in front of them!

Once the deck has been openly stacked, monte goes on to demonstrate (ala Triumph) how

“I had some cards that were face down, which… you know… is normal. But there were also some that were face up… some that were face-to-face, and... it was just a real mess.”

Of course, during this patter he does an open half-pass in order to rearrange the deck for the climactic(?) reveal.

Now, the deck has been arranged in red/black order and he is ready to begin OOTW. This is also the point that the posted “demo” begins.

Go up and read the beginning of this post again. I wrote that there must have been an edited-out cull prior to the footage we saw, and monte replied: “An interesting and completely inaccurate assumption. I assure you that you see exactly what the spectators see.” This was a LIE; a complete and utter lie, and a rather insulting one at that.

As I said earlier, I feel sorry for anyone foolish enough to give this little scam artist a penny of his or her money.

And, finally, monte, you say that other posters have "exposed" the method for OOTW in this thread, while you have not. I contend that ANY intelligent person watching the entire 'demo' will have no problem figuring out exactly how you did your little trick. It is so poorly constructed and badly handled that you really don't need to actually provide an explanation section. Just sell the performance video you sent me, and every magician in this sloppy world will instantly know how to do it anyway.

Sadly, however, only the very worst ones will want to.


TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
montemagic
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TW,

Thank you for your opinion.
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edh
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I viewed the demo of montemagic. It is just as Mr. Wayne has said. The handling of OOTW is, maybe, montemagic's but there is nothing new here. He may want to sell this as his own handling, though there really is no improvement to the OOTW plot.

Now having said that I must say Mr. Lorayne, Mr. Arce and Mr. Wayne have not commented on what I posted about Simon Lovell's Transpo Kings. This may just have been an oversight. But there was a thread about this posted here. If Mr. Arce, Mr. Lorayne and Mr. Wayne have no comment about whether Mr. Lovell's Transpos Kings is original or not and should be sold as an improvement over the orginal plot to TS. If Mr. Lovell gets a pass with his effect then why shouldn't montemagic get a pass with his? As I see it Transpo Kings IS Twisted Sister. Only the handling is slightly different and in my opinion no improvment on the plot.

Let us not use a double standard here. If one gets a pass then the other also should get a pass. If one gets slammed then let's slam the other. If the "pro" does this type of thing then why not the amatuers or semi-pros?

If no comments are made on my post by these distinguished gentleman, then that, in itself, is a reply.

BTW here is the link. http://www.funtymemagic.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=5415

Thank you all for allowing me my opinion.
edh
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Thomas Wayne
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Edh,

I know Simon Lovell as a friend, but I'm not familiar with "Transpo Kings"; in fact I've actually never heard of it. But then, I don't do "Twisted Sister" either - although I am familiar with the gaffs, plot and handling of that effect.

I can say two things about that, however. First, if I had a trick that I performed, which used the principle(s) of "Twisted Sister", I would put in the effort to research ALL the material relevant to that effect before I EVER started posting teaser videos – especially dishonest ones – in an effort to sell "my" effect to the magic community. It's all about the research.

Second, I am unaware of these various "passes" that you say Lovell and others have been "given". I certainly didn't give anybody a "pass" that I know of. But even if you are absolutely correct that other magicians have gotten away with "semi-plagiarism", in what way should that permit future transgressions by others? O.J. Simpson got a pass on double murder; are you arguing that this means all celebrity murderers should similarly escape justice? I sincerely hope not.

If a few rotten apples have the potential to "spoil the bunch", why would you advocate that we need more rotten apples? I'm afraid I don't follow your logic.

TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
mmura
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Montemagic,

IMHO, the 'thing' you are going to sell is not an impromptu OOTW, but just another way of colour separation.
And this method has been discussed at the Magic Café forum -- nothing new.

If you claim that the combination of slop shuffle and OOTW is a *BREAKTHROUGH* and you are entitled to sell it, then I can sell "Out of sloppy Universe", "Sloppy Galaxy", "Sloppy Magnetic", so on...(Of course I won't... more precisely, I CAN'T!)

mmura
Thomas Wayne
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Edh,

One last thing; I entered this thread, not because monte was trying to sell material of which he has no ownership rights - though that does turn out to be the case. I entered this thread because monte was trying to sell a routine through deceptive "advertising". He is making claims that simply aren't true, in a attempt to dishonestly take money from eager magicians on this forum.

I didn't come here to argue the merits of other magicians and the tricks they may (or may not) have cribbed from others. If "Transpo Kings" is such an important issue for you, don't hijack this thread - start a NEW one.

TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Harry Lorayne
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I don't know Simon's routine so can't comment on it and, frankly, not apropo to this discussion. The fact is that the Slop Shuffle has been used to separate the deck into reds and blacks long before MonteMagic was born. I did it myself when I was younger than he is, I'm sure. There are, of course, MUCH better ways - see my post above. Multiply "CHUTZPAH" by about 100! What silliness. HL
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edh
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To both Mr. Lorayne and Mr. Wayne the link for Transpo Kings is in my previous post. Again perhaps just an oversight. If you don't want to comment on it fine by me. No comment is a comment.

We'll leave it at that.
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edh
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Mr. Wayne, I don't see why you think that I'm hijacking this thread. I made my post based on what you posted. If that's hijacking my apologies.

Mr. Loryane if I commented on something that was posted here how is that not appropriate to this discussion?
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Greg Arce
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Edh, I too had not seen Transpo Kings or have heard about it. I went to the link and the brief explanation there seems to read as just a new set of cards for the old Twisted Sisters idea. I can't completely say that until I see someone perform it or handle the cards.
I know I use Twisted Sisters and love that effect. I also use B'wave and love it almost as much as Twisted Sisters.
Having said that, I hope hat what is being sold is not just Twisted Sisters with a different set of cards.

Greg
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Greg Arce
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Oops, I went back and noticed it had a demo. Not good. It does look like he just added a presentation to the already existing Twisted Sisters set up. I don't get how this stuff happens. I'm hoping that somewhere he got permission from Max or John to do that, but who knows. It's a shame if it's just a new package on an old effect.

Greg
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Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2007-05-12 21:56, edh wrote:
To both Mr. Lorayne and Mr. Wayne the link for Transpo Kings is in my previous post. Again perhaps just an oversight. If you don't want to comment on it fine by me. No comment is a comment.
[...]


Now you're just being petulant. "No comment is a comment."? What kind of double-speak is THAT? I never heard that twisted logic before. Furthermore, I have commented, at length, on your primary question of “two wrongs making a right”. The simple fact is I'm not familiar with "Transpo Kings", and I'm not about to go become familiar with it in order to entertain a debate that has NOTHING to do with the effect primarily being discussed in this thread.

“Hijacking” a thread is the act of diverting attention away from the initial topic to suit a different issue that YOU wish to discuss. This is exactly what you are trying to do, edh. As I said before, if you have an ax to grind about “Transpo Kings” or “Twisted Sisters” or any other effect that is NOT “Out of This Sloppy World”, perhaps you should start a new topic.

Maybe I will join that thread, maybe I won’t; either way I will say what I have to say – NOT have you say it for me.

“No comment is a comment”? I don’t know what you’re smoking, but don’t blow it my direction, okay? lol

TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
RickVancouver
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Thomas,

I love reading your posts here, you're so dead on and they just don't get it.

Rick
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Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.
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