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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » The end of the Golden Age of cups? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bill Palmer
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I don't know whether they do it out of malice or out of a simple lack of knowledge of the concept of return business. They have already knocked off a major percentage of George Robinson's brass material.

Another confusion tactic they used was to name part of their line "The Collector's" line. The logo they used resembled the Collectors part of the old Collector's Workshop logo.

I know that you are the kind of person who takes pride in his work. I'm the same way. I want everything I do to be worthy of putting my name on it.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Chessmann
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Reminds me of the things you see/hear on TV after a presidential debate. I remember one year the question was, "Who looked presidential tonight?" Made me want to vomit, because I know that's how a significant number of people make their decision.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
walid ahumada
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To the original topic:
since october -november 2007(i am not sure) besides e-bay here in the "tricks and effects for sale or trade" I have seen a lot of good deals on cups and balls sets, when jake start to sell his collection I was going crazy because I had no money but any ways I was following all his sells and my mouth watering, the amazing thing is that the good deals are still almost every day, some of the cups are selling for 1/2 of the price.
so we are still in the golden age of the cups and balls.
“Magic becomes art when it has nothing to hide.” BEN OKRI quote
ferrissteve
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It is unforunate that so many good cup manufatueurs are no longer producing but I suppose that's what happens when someone produces an item cheaper. I talked with denny over at denny and lees and he has always told me that a good item of real quality is released for a period of time until it gets knocked off/made cheaper and resold, thus killing the market for quality. its a problem because the knock offs drive the price of good quality products up, making it harder for those magicians that want professional quality material. but then again professionals will pay whatever the price is, because its viewed as a business investment, but that's a discussion for later.
Mad Jake
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There is one way to defeat the evil. The originators and creators of higher end products can produce to order. While this may be a time inconvience for the customer, it's the choice they will have to make. They can either wait for a custom order without a price increase or pay for the lessor copy and get what they pay for.

With smaller companys like RNT II, we worked a solution where we can keep prices down, but again this will create a bottleneck, so the choice will have to be that of the consumer, cheap knock offs or a moderately priced piece by highend or respective craftsman. One of our customers said is was worth the 3 month wait, he's been waiting on some coins for 7 months, but even considers that wait acceptable. Professionals will wait, eager consumers that can not afford an originial piece will not.

More labor goes into pieces made by individuals or small family operations than that of the larger mass production companys. The cheap knock offs are counting on teh wallet thinkers and the greed of flooding the market with crap.
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Tom Fenton
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Personally, I would rather wait for a high quality product that I know will live up to my expectations than go for the instant gratification of a readily available "knock-off".

In my experience, wait time means that the manufacturer is making the product for you.
This does two things:

A. You get a quality product,
B. The cost of that product stays reasonable as the maker has no stock sitting on shelves gathering dust waiting to be sold.
"But there isn't a door"
pepka
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I just realized that Jake said his daugher is spinning cups at 17! Man, where were girls like this when I was 17? Man, to be a young magician and find a girl who has that job.
L Trunk
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Boy, if I met a girl like that, why, I'd probably buy some cups off her.
Bill Palmer
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Watch out for her old man! He will get you by the cups!
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Mad Jake
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Quote:
On 2008-05-10 12:01, ferrissteve wrote:
It is unforunate that so many good cup manufatueurs are no longer producing but I suppose that's what happens when someone produces an item cheaper. I talked with denny over at denny and lees and he has always told me that a good item of real quality is released for a period of time until it gets knocked off/made cheaper and resold, thus killing the market for quality. its a problem because the knock offs drive the price of good quality products up, making it harder for those magicians that want professional quality material. but then again professionals will pay whatever the price is, because its viewed as a business investment, but that's a discussion for later.


That may have been a factor years ago, but not so much today. People think cups by us, Riser, Sherwood and others are high. Actually we're underpriced. Copper continues to rise like a barrel of oil, in return this affects delivery costs as well, we now !@#ume a 125.00 tailgate fee for each delivery. Scrap prices don't amount to a hill of beans compared to the initial investment. Our labor is no where close to where it should be on cups and custom manufactured items, because we can't compute real time in or no one would be able to afford them. But all of us still put the time and effort and PRIDE into what we do. So why even do it? Because we LOVE what we do.

People have inquired about plating and why that cost is rising. You can ask anyone that has purchased our plated cups as far back as the very beginning, it doesn't peal, flake or dull, we use the best plater in the US because they do it right. A 155 gallon barrel of virgin nickel pellets cost us 8500.00 a little over a year ago. When we re-ordered later that year the same barrel cost us $20,000, that's a lot of cash for one barrel and a !@#$% to explain to the IRS to make them understand why you need 155 gallon drum of nickel for a magic company. Silver and gold plating, well that speaks for itself in cost.

Supply of handmade specialty products is what commands the price because US raw materials command the price.

Now they are claiming that prices for manufacturing in China are on the rise. Do you think this will help the companys that are clipping US made magic and having them done overseas? They'll be subject to fuel surcharges on cargo and held to strict minimums of orders to even barely show a profit, it's not a fantasy, it's fact, the days of overseas ripoffs will start to dwindle. Who can companys turn to in the US to make their ripoffs? No one really unless its a rogue shop and even then it will reflect their workmanship and the US is too small for that to happen and the shop to stay in business.

If you take a look at the biggest of them all in the US, I mean really who in the hell needs another plastic penetration frame? Who needs a blu-ray shot dvd when blu-ray players, good ones are about $1k, magic coloring books, yeah we need a ton of those. However they have taken some very clever and hardwork and turned it into trash, but again it won't last forever.

Don't expect to see magic apparatus prices come down in price after the rip offs vanish, that's naive. As a manufacturer, even a small shop, the costs are high and despite everyone thinking we all drive around in 7 different cars and live in mansions, we don't. But what we will continue to do is offer props that we take Pride in and at a price we feel is fair after expenses. The age of the 45.00 Bob Kline Swirlit Box and the like is gone, forever.

Figure the inflation like this on magic, when I was 15 gas was 45.9 cents a gallon, we're now almost paying 10x that, not far from it at least and a very realistic figure. 29 years later lets take Paul Fox cups that were selling for 30.00, that would put them at about 300.00 retail. so the economic factor of magic isn't that far off, the same with groceries.

What will also help put the rip off companys out of business is Technology. Jr. has 60.00 bux to spend, is he/she going to spend it on crap effects that have been ripped off or on the latest Xbox 360 or PS3 title, my bet goes to the technology side. If they don't support their local brick and mortar that carry crap, rents don't get paid and the dealers that have no shame in carrying the ripped effects can't make their rent, if there are none of these left, who do the rip off companys sell to?

The companys that will still be causing the problems are the ones that ride the coat tails of others who take a public domain item, do all the research and marketing, create a buyers market, then they cash in on the hottest and latest prop and undercut. These are the future vultures that will harm magic progression and are actually worse than the rip off companies, these are the people that drive up prices by causing a distress in the cost of research and development for the originator who re-released an effect.

It's not hard to come up with something of your own, even if it's from the past, really simple if you can type an email or pick up the phone. All the reproductions, Sisti, Frank, Biro, Gazzo, all done correctly, permissions, credits the whole 9 yards. Performers who have a name for themself in the magic community would probally be happy to let someone bring back a classic effect, hell that's what the community needs instead of something like pulling your eyeball from the socket. If you have a good name, they'll be more than happy to work and !@#ociate with you, but get off to a bad start and your future is pretty much determined.

Well enough of this long rant, we're leaving for WV for the Memorial day weekend, nice to spend some time with the family in the mountains. Smile

Wishing everyone a wonderful and SAFE Memorial Day weekend.

Jake and the gang
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Pete Biro
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And a Happy Memorial Day to you too Jake. Nice message, couldn't have said it better. I'll miss my old gig of working the Indy 500 every Memorial Day for 33 straight years... but this time I'll be spending it with my family and a coupld of pals.

Let us not forget those that sacrificed so we can live in a free society.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Mr. Muggle
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"The end of the Golden Age of cups?" - no, its not an end; we are just moving into a new era where new products will become available and old ones will be more sought after as time goes by.
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
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