|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 | ||||||||||
Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
That's great news, Bill.Any idea of when an announcement is likely to be made? Presumably, it will be a limited print run.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
|
|||||||||
fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
I do not envy the editor his role. The Bob Read print collection is of encyclopedic proportions. There's bound to be an awful lot of good stuff that won't be able to make it into a single volume work. Deciding what goes in and what stays out is going to be quite a task. Hopefully, the forthcoming book will be the first in a series.
This promises to be a landmark publishing event for the world of C&B and for magic as a whole. I can hardly wait. As far as useable C&B routines are concerned, I agree with Richard. There is an earlier description of a cups and ball routine in Scott's Discoverie of Wiitchcraft (1584) but it not really "usable". Incidentally, the very oldest PART of a cups and ball routine that has come down to us is from the 3rd century. In his "letters to farmers"(letter 17 but sometimes referred to as letter 20),Aelian,after the fashion of Alciphron,describes what we know today as the "gathering in the middle": where a ball is placed under each of the three cups,only to have all three balls appear under a single cup. This seems,then, to be the oldest documented move there is in all of cups and balls magic. And as we all know,it's still going strong! Fortasse |
|||||||||
Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-05-28 18:39, Bill Palmer wrote: Just had a look on Martinka: the last full set of Albo's books sold for over $5000...
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
|
|||||||||
lint Special user Concord, CA 967 Posts |
Well Klosterman's Salon De Magie is a bit more affordable. Hopefully there will be a 'standard' version of Read's book available. -todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
|
|||||||||
JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-05-28 20:36, fortasse wrote: Yes, I would like to have that work too. |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-05-29 05:42, Richard Evans wrote: I'm speaking in terms of initial offering of a single volume.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Bob actually had the manuscript nearly finished in 2005 at the Magic Circle Centenary. The size of the completed work will depend on how large the photos are, that is how many are on a page.
There is one from 1710 that I hope makes it into the book for the reason that it has the first representation of a cup with a shoulder bead.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Tod Todson Inner circle USA 1296 Posts |
Ok, so when then is the earliest reputable source/depiction of the cups and balls?
Thanks, Tod
Mystifier, Youth Speaker
<BR><BR> |
|||||||||
Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-11-09 17:38, Tod Torrent wrote: The first description of a useable routine is 'Of the Play of the Balls' in Hocus Pocus Junior (1634)
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
|
|||||||||
fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
The oldest surviving depiction of the cups and balls is a 1404 drawing in one of the " planet books" - this according to the noted German authority on cups and balls in 15th and 16th century graphic art, the late Kurt Volkmann. A copy of this particular drawing is on the cups and balls museum website.
Fortasse |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Update on graphics. There is a painting on the panel of a cassone, which was a large box that was given to newlyweds on their wedding day, of a party. There is a cups and balls scene depicted there. This is earlier than anything in the Volkmann book. The panel is on display in a museum in Berlin. I saw it in August. I'll see if I can dig out a date for it.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Tod Todson Inner circle USA 1296 Posts |
Ok, so here is what I understand from above then:
1) The oldest DESCRIPTION of the C&B is from Aelian's "Letters to Farmers" in the 3rd century. 2) The oldest DEPICTION of the C&B is from a "Planet books" drawing in 1404 according to Volkmann. Tod
Mystifier, Youth Speaker
<BR><BR> |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
No.
The oldest written description is the one that you mention. However, the oldest depiction is actually the one on the cassone panel that is in the Berlin Museum of Art. Kurt Volkmann did not know about that panel when he wrote his book in the 1950's.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
What's the approximate date on that one, Bill? Didn't know there was anything before the planet book drawing of 1404?
Fortasse |
|||||||||
Tod Todson Inner circle USA 1296 Posts |
Bill, there is an About.com article quoting a much older written description by you:
“The earliest reference we have to the cups and balls is in a letter from Seneca the Younger to Lucilius sometime around 45 - 60 AD." This would pre-date the Aelian writing by a hundred years or so, correct? Best, Tod
Mystifier, Youth Speaker
<BR><BR> |
|||||||||
fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
Tod :
I think you may be confusing two different things : the earliest (partial) description of a performance of cups and balls is in Aelian's "Letters to Farmers (3rd century A.D). Both Bill and I agree on that. On the other hand, the earliest reference to cups and balls period is generally attributed to Seneca the Younger in the 1st century A.D. The problem with the Seneca source material,however, is that it contains no descriptive information whatsoever on the cups and balls effect itself, added to which is the disagreement among translators as to exactly what the original latin words were trying to convey. As a result,it's unclear whether Seneca was actually referring to the trick we know as the Cups and Balls, or to something else. The two persons who investigated this particular question rather thoroughly were Victor Farelli in his excellent preface to "John Ramsay's Cups and Balls" (1948,London, at pg 13) and, earlier still,in the 1920's, the eminent British magic historian,Sydney Clarke, who concluded that "Seneca may thus not be describing the Cups and Balls but some other feat of deception or game"(Annals of Conjuring, 2001 reprint,Seattle,pg 412,n.23). Fortasse |
|||||||||
Tod Todson Inner circle USA 1296 Posts |
Thank you, Fortasse!
Mystifier, Youth Speaker
<BR><BR> |
|||||||||
fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
You're very welcome, Tod.
Fortasse |
|||||||||
Steve Burton Loyal user 258 Posts |
The only reference I can find even close to the Houdini quote referenced is from Hugard in "Modern Magic Manual." He wrote, "It has been said that no one should consider himself a magician if he cannot work the cups and balls, which is not strictly true; the converse however does hold good-Anyone who can perform the cups and balls skillfully is a good magician."
|
|||||||||
fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
No, the best and, it would appear, original source of the Houdini quote is John Mulholland. In his essay "The Oldest Trick" (The Sphinx, Oct.1935, p. 218), Mulholland wrote: "Houdini once told me that he considered no man to be a magician until he was able skillfully to perform the Cups and Balls".
So there you have it: Houdini said it directly to Mulholland, one of the most reputable and influential magic writers of his time. Fortasse |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » History of the cups and balls (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.03 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |