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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
I quite like Michael Taggert take on this matter. The legality of this issue aside, you really cannot stop this from happening short of stopping your show (yeah... THAT'LL fill a hat, sure...) So I think that I will personally make dam sure that said illicit recording is naught but a giant long running commercial for myself- interspaced with camera gags and invitations to the speilberg wannabe to tip me for the privelage.
It's interesting that this particular issue has so many diverse opinions associated with it.
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
*** I saw Bill whippin' out that Swatter before I got half way down the page
Me personally, I would never do the Gazzo routine publically or at all for that matter. I just couldn't do it any justice. Good to see you Gazzo! Jake
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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rrgg New user 11 Posts |
I think there are some legal question when you get down to what you do with the video.
You can do nothing wrong and still get sued. I would be very careful with what I did with any video of any performer that I did not have permission to use. |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
The question here is;
Legal or not, what can we do as performers to enforce this? Or should we? Besides not liking it, what can we do to stop it? Or do we just do as I observed above and just grin and bear it and make it part of the show? I doubt that people are going to go home and repeatedly watch some street guy mugging for the camera.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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RobertBloor Inner circle The Socialist Republic of the USA. 1051 Posts |
Figuring my response would get deleted far too soon, I went ahead and posted it on my LIVE! Wire blog.
Anyone is welcome to view and reply to it. I welcome the dialog. The LIVE! Wire = Unreal... Enjoy. -Robert
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence |
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IanKendall Special user Edinburgh 571 Posts |
I remember taking someone's video camera and juggling with it (_very_ carefully!). When they got home they would have seen half a magic show, and then Circular Quay going round and round
Take care, Ian |
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Jim Wilder Special user Birmingham, AL 954 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-05-29 11:33, RobertBloor wrote: I enjoyed and found the post to be insightful. Please note that I have left the link untouched. Also, please check your PM's Robert. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-05-29 09:55, rrgg wrote: I've been fighting this off for about 25 years with my own act. I'm not the only one that has problems with it by any means. I don't know how many of you know the Flaming Idiots. One year at Scarborough Faire, one of the patrons came up and told Robbie, "Hey, the guys at the Juggling Club in Dallas really liked the material I taped and showed them at the last meeting. They are all doing your act now." So, Robbie explained that this was theft, pure and simple, and he told him to bring the tape and any copies he had made back to the faire with him. There is absolutely no difference, legally speaking, between distributing copies of an act and distributing copies of a DVD or a video. I did not ever permit anyone to videotape my act, except legally authorized representatives of the place I was working. If any of you ever go to Epcot, find Henry VIII (Michael Marzella) and ask him about the time he walked into Chuck E. Cheese in Dallas and found a video of him doing his Scarborough Faire act playing for their customers. That cost Chucky a lot of Cheese. You can show a video to your friends in a non-formal environment. But when you start distributing it without permission, and that's the key word -- distributing -- whether it is on youtube, in a DVD, or sbowing it to your magic club, or displaying it in a place that charges admission or otherwise makes money from the presence of that video, then you have violated the law. Now here's the catch. It may be a matter of a lawsuit. It may be a matter of criminal prosecution. The law changed several years ago, so copyright violation often brings a big fine. If the performer is a member of ASCAP or BMI, or his material is covered by SESAC or even by some of the other groups, the screenwriters guild, etc., the proceedings can bankrupt an ordinary citizen. The RIAA scared the fertilizer out of a granny lady and her grandchild during one of the P2P cases. They do this to get people's attention. The last thing to do is to give up on the system. If you don't take advantage of it, it won't work for you. But you shouldn't allow anyone to tape your act without permission.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-05-29 11:33, RobertBloor wrote: This appears to be comparable to the J Riser syndrome posts. Affraid of something being deleted, so it's posted on an unrelated board to that of the Café. If a Café moderator thinks something should be edited or deleted, then so beit, this is Steve's house, you're a guest. To circumvent Café Authority and decisions, is Childish and unprofessional.
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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RobertBloor Inner circle The Socialist Republic of the USA. 1051 Posts |
Now Bill you're changing your entire argument now. Which side of this issue are you really on? The side on page 1 of this thread, or page 2?
Quote:
Bill Palmer (page 1): They have the right to videotape it, if you are on public property, but they do NOT have the right to put it on the internet or share it with their friends. And now you state... Quote:
Bill Palmer (page 2): You can show a video to your friends in a non-formal environment. Your examples supporting your argument are also poor. Here's why... Quote:
Bill Palmer (page 2): "Hey, the guys at the Juggling Club in Dallas really liked the material I taped and showed them at the last meeting. They are all doing your act now." The act of video taping this show was not a copyright violation. The act of showing some of his friends was not a copyright violation. However the act of the jugglers, taking that and beginning to perform the material may have been. Which is why your connection between me and Gazzo is completely ridiculous - the difference - Gazzo sold out his act. In your example the Flaming Idiots did not. Quote:
Bill Palmer (page 2): If any of you ever go to Epcot, find Henry VIII (Michael Marzella) and ask him about the time he walked into Chuck E. Cheese in Dallas and found a video of him doing his Scarborough Faire act playing for their customers. That cost Chucky a lot of Cheese. Again - not a good example as this does not support your original assertion. The fact is this is public display (and they're getting monetary gain) so that changes everything. And in fact supports what I have been saying. Quote:
Bill Palmer (page 2): You can show a video to your friends in a non-formal environment. But when you start distributing it without permission, and that's the key word -- distributing -- whether it is on youtube, in a DVD, or sbowing it to your magic club, or displaying it in a place that charges admission or otherwise makes money from the presence of that video, then you have violated the law. Well now here you go again making claims that you may or may not be true. You're partially right here however in that distribution without permission may be a copyright violation. But I digress back to the beginning of this thread. We're talking about public place. And your suggestion that "there are many definitions of public place" just doesn't hold up. Public place for the purpose of this topic is any place that the public would reasonably have access to. Here are examples that back up an argument... You go to Disney World and video tape the fireworks show. You go home and play the video for your friends, family and neighbors. No violation. You digitize the same video you shot and upload it to the internet to share with your friends No violation. Now - if you put it on a website and charge a fee to download that video - yes, violation. Example 2... You live in New York. Good Morning America has Christina Aguilera performing on their stage outside the studio. Hundreds of bystanders gather and watch. You're in an office over looking the stage. You video tape it. And put it on the net to show your friends just how close you were. No violation. Quote:
Bill Palmer (page 2): But you shouldn't allow anyone to tape your act without permission. That's a matter of opinion. However, even so, your permission may only be sought or refused to the extent that you are not in a public place. In other words - if you are in a public place and someone tapes your act and puts it on YouTube, you've got no leg to stand on. Believe it or not... Speaking of "outlandish" things to do with a video camera. You could be walking down the street, see a couple through the window of their home having sex, you could take all the pictures you want and all the video you want, heck you could even publish them... No privacy violation. No copyright violation. Silly ain't it? -Robert
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence |
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RobertBloor Inner circle The Socialist Republic of the USA. 1051 Posts |
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Mad Jake: To circumvent Café Authority and decisions, is Childish and unprofessional. Sticks and stones mate. Speaking of copyright rules...from the Café Rules page Quote:
Cafe Rules: In addition, postings made on this website are considered to be contributions (donations) and given to this site free of charge, and as such automatically become the publishing property of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, The Magic Bakery, and/or Steve Brooks Magic. No kind of royalties, fees or other monetary considerations of any kind are promised, expressed or implied to authors of said postings. Members who make such postings do so of their own free will and understand that posting here is no different then contributing/donating an article to a magic magazine, which then holds the copyright to the article. In other words Jake - by posting on my blog, and not here, I reserve the copyright on that blog article. Knowledge is power. -Robert PS: JimWilder, my PM box is empty.
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
First off I'm not your mate, next I don't see where sticks and stones come in.
Next, just because you blog, does not copyright it, refer to the law of fair use. You clearly stated in your post you posted on a blog to avoid it being deleted, nothing was mentioned about copyright. I'm well aware of the TOS statement of copyright on the Café' thank you very much, Steve and I talk often and I've even donated material the Café' under his copyright/donation for later use. Knowledge is power, smartest thing you've said yet, but education at any level is even better.
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Jim Wilder Special user Birmingham, AL 954 Posts |
Quote:
Well, I have sent it twice, and then again at Danny's. Good luck finding it. I essentially asked that you approach me straight up. Your misconceptions are on you, not me. When you get to the name calling without an approach, well, then you certainly don't help your cause. |
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RobertBloor Inner circle The Socialist Republic of the USA. 1051 Posts |
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Mad Jake: but education at any level is even better. You're right about that! Boy I tell ya, having a college degree in television production (you know, video taping stuff) and having to pass media law in order to graduate sure was a waste of time. God forbid the "hack" street performer might actually know what he's talking about. -Robert Bloor
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
Is that sarcasm? You use it with your monkey friends, but you do not use it with me!
And yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about as far as education, now are you just bragging or taking away from the fact that you took your posting to an offsite location (outside the Café)? I didn't refer to the topic of discussion because I do not have the knowledge about the copyright of public peformance. I addressed the issue of posting off the Café, which you then replied to in a childish rant about your own copyright because you blogged off the Café in fear of being edited or deleted. Now if we want to duel education levels, that is a good thing to do off the Café because this isn't really the place for it, as a matter of fact, anyone that has to brag about what they've accomplished as far as schoolastic or educational background should consider going back to the school of humility.
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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RobertBloor Inner circle The Socialist Republic of the USA. 1051 Posts |
Quote:
Mad Jake: I didn't refer to the topic of discussion because I do not have the knowledge about the copyright of public peformance. But you seem to know enough to pontificate about fair use. Quote:
Mad Jake: Next, just because you blog, does not copyright it, refer to the law of fair use. My apologies to the original poster. I hope you got your question answered. I think it's best I leave well enough alone in this thread now. -Robert
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence |
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Jim Wilder Special user Birmingham, AL 954 Posts |
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I think it's best I leave well enough alone in this thread now. I have some unfinished business Robert. I want you to call me, or contact me in some manner. |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
Yes, I'm well versed in fair use, as an IT manager for Infinet communications, we too had to complete courses and pass exams. Privacy, copyright and fair use all being included. But I'm not bragging, only answering your question.
My point was simply that you circumvented Café' policy to get your point accross and make sure that it was not edited or deleted. Like a child determined to get to the cookie jar. These are the actions that start uncontrolable issues between members that differ from opinion. Circumvention doesn't work for anyone except the bloggers self interest. Not to mention is shows a great deal of disrespect for both Steve Brooks and the moderators that have to enforce rules, put up with childish antics, all on their own time. If you're going to post in Steve's house, why not follow his rules?
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
I've read what Bill wrote several times, and Robert is off base and reading into it.
The initial post of this thread specifically mentions a specific performer's material being recorded. Bill stayed on topic. He did have a few personal comments that probably should have been said in private, but he did not bring up the topic that Robert mentions in his blog, at least not in public. Tony Iacoviello |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Actually from what read, he did. But that's past history and should remain in the past. I think both Bill and Robert have valuable knowledge to share with us on the topic of videotaping rights and I'd rather not see the topic drift from that if at all possible.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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