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Justin Style Inner circle 2010 Posts |
Yesterday, I had to do a show for a group of about 65 people-adults, business event. All I had was a deck of cards, a couple coins, newspaper and a piece of string. I had to do an hour.
The time FLEW by. People were laughing, they were amazed; they were entertained and blown away. They might think I am great, you might think I suck? (I might even think I suck) Who’s right? I met a guy with a $300, 000 watch on his wrist. Does that mean he has the right time? I’m trying to figure out where you’re coming from? |
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airship Inner circle In my day, I have driven 1594 Posts |
There are lots of people who think David Blaine and Cris Angel suck, but they're taking money to the bank in wheelbarrows. What does this do to the theory that money creates great magicians? I think love of the art creates great magicians. A person will do for love what he would never do for money.
'The central secret of conjuring is a manipulation of interest.' - Henry Hay
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Justin Style Inner circle 2010 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-05-15 14:55, airship wrote: WORD! |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
So they suck cash and talent and also money ... so what?
Do they bring honor and respectability to conjuring?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Diana Rigg once edited a book called No Turn Unstoned. It was basically a collection of the most unflattering reviews of performances of some of the most famous and otherwise well-respected actors in the world.
It's extraordinarily difficult to be consistently wonderful. I admire greatly those who try to keep learning and improving and risking. On the other hand, many times I've seen a play or movie and asked myself, "Out of the gazillion actors who auditioned for this role, why in god's name did this one get the part." I admit it does get discouraging at times. Jack Shalom
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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airship Inner circle In my day, I have driven 1594 Posts |
Once again, I think you've hit it, Jonathan.
If a magician doesn't suck, it's because he treats magic as an art and a craft. He won't perform anything in public unless he has been able to raise it well above the minimum required to get it into the "doesn't suck" category. He will do all he can to make sure that his presentations are polished, magical, and entertaining. And in the process, he will bring honor and respectability to conjuring.
'The central secret of conjuring is a manipulation of interest.' - Henry Hay
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
Yes, I must agree there is a lot,
most probably, too much “suckage” in magic, both in the amateur and professional camps. I would hazard a guess that the percentage of good-to-great is lower, and good-to-sucks is higher in magic than other art-forms who are more comfortable owning the name of “art” and therefore aspiring to those standards. So, maybe there are larger percentages of non-suck ballet dancers, opera singers, stage actors, and oil painters? The disturbing thing is the original poster's question of: “am I among those who suck, and who’s to know?” And as said, if you ask another magician, you’ll probably never find the truth. They will be as blind to good-or-bad as you feel you are. So, my solution? Get a director!!!!!! A good, respected, competent, experienced stage-director, hire him to watch you, to evaluate your work, to coach you, to rehearse with you, and to fully stage your act. Even if we do- or did- suck, we can find other find professional artists, who can support us and help our work grow, and eventually flourish. Why do magicians think they can “do it all”? We can’t! No one can successfully… invent, create, design, build, write, edit, rehearse, choreograph, light, costume, direct, stage, produce, market, book, sell, and all the other things needed to be successful. So hire the experts who know one job well, and let them work with you and for you, on being a success. My magic used to suck, I know it did. It’s much better now, and people pay me an awful lot not to suck. I still have a ways to go to achieve my vision of an artist in his art. And, I just engaged a new director to help me realize that vision, and upgrade my offerings, and I will listen to him! My two-cents, Walt |
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
I'm with Jonathan, the 80/20 rule is it.
Only ... 20% of the same crappy tricks are done ad nauseam by 80% of the magicians with repetition and redundancy, over and over, to infinity, like cell division, like a pleonastic, tautological sentence, in an incensant manner, until it repeats itself all over again, superfluously, like a copy machine with an endless supply of ink toner, paper and a light bulb that will never burn out.
POOF!
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Andy the cardician Inner circle A street named after my dad 3362 Posts |
Walt,
great points . . . . Andy
Cards never lie
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ChristopherM Special user UK 844 Posts |
When you analyse magic from an outsider's or your own point of view, it's most productive and informative to work from the top down; look to the foremost practitioners at the outset of the investigation. They are truly representative of what good magic is about, for the most part.
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MMilan7 New user 9 Posts |
Nicholas, George Ledo and Walt hit the nail on the head. That's the kind of discussion I was hoping for. So thank you and all others for your responses.
Can we break it down into the following observations? 1) Magic and a few other art forms (e.g., painting, writing poetry, playing drums) require zero skill, thinking or practice to achieve (read carefully) the basic, core element of the art form: an illusion, paint on a canvas, text, rhythmic beats (e.g., jumping rubber bands, modern art, heavy metal). 2) Since in these art forms the core element referenced above so overshadows all other elements and because no one points out to "most people", "the bottom 95 percent", "the mob", "amateurs" and "us" that there is so much more to learn in these fields, hardly anyone moves beyond that basic, core element (studying theatre, rhetoric, fashion, scripting, etc. in magic; technique, etc. in painting; ...). 3) This phenomenon is not at all an issue in most other art forms. No one brings paintings, drums or poetry to a party, the weekend barbecue, or work. Also, painting, poetry and drumming is not as novel as magic, which is why painters, poets and drummers are not hired for birthday or Christmas parties. However, magic is an in-the-face artform. As soon as you have taken the very first, inconceivably small step into magic, you have to PERFORM! Illusion, unlike a painting, poetry or rhythmic beats, does not exist, unless there is an outside observer. This dilemma is the reason, why every single person who totally sucks in this art form (and arguably the number of people who totally suck in magic is not higher than in other art forms that require no skill in the above sense) becomes a representative of our art. -- I think the above summarizes more or less a common consensus among those who have already posted on this topic. -- Two questions remain/arise from this. 1) How do you know you are part of the 95%? I think there is no certain way of knowing, unless you are a FISM champion, Jason Latimer, Bob Read, David Copperfield, Bobby Bernard or in any other way recognized as outstanding in the entertainment community. [Note: Repeat bookings on cruise ships or corporate events are IMHO no indicator. As I said before and would happily discuss somewhere else, people pay for all kinds of mind boggling c**p and the novelty factor of magic compensates for a lot - really, for your own sake, think about that! {No... don't just click quote and respond ... think about it first!)] 2) How can we become better? Other people have touched on this. I think the key is for everyone to brainstorm on all possible parameters of good magic [Maybe that's an idea for a new thread.]. We would realize that magic includes not only the illusion, but also X, Y, Z, etc ... [as I said, a topic for a new thread]. The second step would be to get in touch with experts in all these fields X, Y, Z, .... We need advice from directors, public speakers, actors, fashion designers, Therabreath (google it - one of the things that annoys me the most about close-up magicians), agents, accountants, graphic designers, web programmers, hairdressers, etc... And more generally, I think we have to make sure that everyone who starts out in magic (and 95% of us keep starting out in magic their entire life) is aware that magic is not just about the illusion. We have to be more humble! 95% of us damage what we love the most by just doing it. (And no, I'm certainly not going to discuss sponge balls. That's precisely what I was saying with my sucker-at-the-poker-table quote.) Quote:
On 2007-05-16 07:33, ChristopherM wrote: And just for fun, here's the award for the most pointless message in May 2007. |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
MMilan7,
I think ChristopherM made a great point. Looking at the best performers is the way to form a standard to judge the art. Looking at the worst performers won't help much. Don't concentrate on how others are bad. Concentrate on how you can improve yourself. If you want to know how close you are to the top, look up, not down.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Chris Becker Veteran user New York, NY 371 Posts |
I think his point was that ChristopherM's message stated a very obvious truth.
- - -
<BR>Cards don't cheat people. People cheat people. |
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
MMilan7
Welcome to the magic Café. Are you trying to make friends? I must agree with you most magicians don't care about originality, style, or talent. I am not going to speak about sponge balls, card tricks, large plywood, self working magic tricks, or samo lamo magicians patter, because I will make as many enemies as you already have, but as a member of the Café staff I want to welcome you. Al Angello
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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Andy the cardician Inner circle A street named after my dad 3362 Posts |
Everybody is entitled to an own opion - but not to bash a fellow magician. Respect is the word.
Cards never lie
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
Andy
When I show up at a birthday party, and all the adults run for the hills it is because the magician that preseeded me sucked. You want me to respect the hack, and I want to expose him, because he is making us all look bad. Al Angello
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-05-16 20:21, Al Angello wrote: This really is the truth. Bravo Al.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
Andy
My sister is morbidly obese, she wears a red coat, and tight clothing. Everybody always tells her how great her hair looks, when I tell her that red is not her color she tells me I don't know what I'm talking about because everyone else thinks she looks great. Let's get real. Al Angello
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Well, lets see, you've realy come out swinging. With your grand total of 7 posts in this forum, not one stitch of information about yourself in either your profile or any post I've seen, and a very clear and extremely incorrect viewpoint on the subject of magic, you have stepped up on the stage and announced that we all suck. I now know, whithout question everything I need to know about you and your position on this subject. You know your sucker at the poker table quote? I feel much safer, cause I see him, clear as daylight.
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
Drew
You crack me up.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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