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munkywrench
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So many times I see people asking for help on this site and others being smart ***** about answering the questions. Don't hate. Knowledge is the most dangerous weapon in the world. The time you spend responding in a negative way could in fact be used to help someone in their pursuit of knowledge. Searching can be easy but, might not be as easy as it seems. I tried looking for softening my Morgans and I found great info but I had to look really hard to find the answers to my questions. The Café' is here to help us in magic not make us computer gurus. Posting a link to another post is fine. Just don't hate on someone seeking help.
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Jonathan Townsend
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Knowledge is responsibility

What do you call a person who can't read;
A person who has expressed no interest in learning to navigate this BBS;
A person who frames questions as if they are the first person in history to even consider the subject matter;
A person who puts the responsibility for their education on others;

And then wants knowledge to go and do magic TO other people?

Please at least make the efforts to learn how to read and then to phrase questions in a way that encourages others to believe you want some help.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Josh the Superfluous
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Some smart ***** are very helpful. Others couldn't be if they tried.

If you come across someone you respect, earn theirs and send a PM. If you post in public, realize what you're in for.

"Knowledge is the most dangerous weapon in the world." next to ignorance.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2
MagicSanta
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Hi, I'm a 'hater'.

First it is:
Knowledge is the most dangerous weapon in the world.

Then you say:
The time you spend responding in a negative way could in fact be used to help someone in their pursuit of knowledge.

Does this mean that you want us to help people obtain the most dangerous weapon? Odd.

Then you make this reference:
I tried looking for softening my Morgans and I found great info but I had to look really hard to find the answers to my questions.

I never saw that question but here is the answer, get one of those stones used to clean really mucked up sinks and bbq grills, they have them in the cleaning part of the store, a stone...I'm afraid in my weapon free ignorance I can't remember the name. Use it to rub the coins etc. Here is a better idea, rather than muck up your Morgans go to a coin show and ask the coinheads if they have any 'slicks'. A slick is an old worn coin that isn't worth much to collectors who like more prestine items. These slicks are naturally worn.

There, I hope you feel better now with that nasty knowledge I just laid on you. I don't understand the computer guru reference since I am far from one of those.
kregg
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It's flattering that you regard our derrière's with such esteem.
With the advent of the internet ... answers are everywhere. Can't find it Google it!
Today, the right of passage is treated like an entitlement (even by the anonymous).

When I was starting out in magic, the answers only came to those inside the clique. Lectures were by invitation only. If I asked how to do something, that I couldn't find in an elusive magic transcript, I was lucky if I got an eye roll. Based on your onion skinned definition ... that was "hateful".
POOF!
MagicSanta
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Ahhh the good ol' days. I remember when you had to prove yourself before they would even tell you the book you could find something in.
Justin Style
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Royal Road, page 97, third paragraph...
airship
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Sometimes it's the aggravating attitude of entitlement that is the problem.

"Hi, I'm a newbie and I haven't done any work or research, but all of you old experienced magicians owe it to me to tell me all of the secrets you've accumulated during a lifetime of hard work. Right now, dammit!"

Wax on, wax off, grasshopper.

If you're not willing to do the work, then go away. And take that attitude with you.
'The central secret of conjuring is a manipulation of interest.' - Henry Hay
munkywrench
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To clear things up. This isn't about me but about the mindless crap that goes on when folks ask questions. I personaly rarely ask questions on here, I read what others say and search like a good newbie. I just get tired of topice being spun off track by people who seem to get there jollies from being arrogant. Magic is supposed to be about fun...isn't it. Not belittleing someone trying to pursue this venture. Who's to say that the "Hi, I'm a newbie and I haven't done any work or research, but all of you old experienced magicians owe it to me to tell me all of the secrets you've accumulated during a lifetime of hard work. Right now, dammit!" isn't a 30 something dude who just got a computer and doesn't know about phrasing and how to properly use the search function. Maybe I'm just to giving of what little Weapons of Mass Destruction I have. The reason we have secret sections is to weed out the Johny come latelys. Weren't you told in school that there is no stupid question? Mr. Townsend, if the person couldn't read then how in the hell did the person end up on The Café'? Come on give me a break I'm sure out of the 30,000 members we have here, some may have learning disorders and aren't as articulate as yourself. Sorry questioning what I'm sure some people want to but are affraid. And if I ****ed any of you off, then you know how it feels being a newb and having people mock you. I'm just tired of trying to gather up knowledge from the Café' and weeding through all the BS that people spew back and forth. I will not name names but, if you think your guilty then you are. This is what I've been seeing and I really mean no ill will towards anybody. If anyone asks me about something I might not have the answer but, I will find it. And what does the Grab-Bag card trick (Royal Road pg. 97) have to do with this?
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airship
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I don't think the Café is much different that most other online forums. We have nice people, and we have nasty people, and we have people who are darned moody and can be either (like me). Smile

There are computer forums where the answers are generally MUCH more arrogant and vitriolic than they are here. I think it comes with the territory for just about any very focused area of knowledge.

My experience is that, most of the time, Café members are more than willing to help out anyone who is willing to do the work.
'The central secret of conjuring is a manipulation of interest.' - Henry Hay
Jonathan Townsend
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Look at your post munkey... parse it carefully. It's really all about you. What leads you to believe that so many posts are hateful or BS?

The arrogance we use when performing has no place among peers in this place.

And reading is far more than just getting through the words.

Here's a frame that sometimes helps to get through the posts... ask what positive intent the writer was working from and what useful content they put into their text. That's a question you ask yourself while reading. If you are left without an answer, feel free to post something like "what do you mean by X" about what they wrote.

Let's not get into why and how our society permits folks with less than grade school manners and language skills onto the internet. That one is just too scary even for me.

BTW, one of the best ways to get an answer to a real question is to send a short polite PM to someone who likely knows what you wish to learn.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
elmago
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There seems to be some confusion on the definition of a "hater".

Under urban colloquial terms, "Hater" is a person who has an extreme dislike of a person with skills for illegitimate reasons. It is a type of jealousy. Magicians are typical "haters" when the rag on successful magicians.

Ironically, if the reasons for hating are legitimate, then the person is not a hater. He is calling is like he sees it. Disagreement may arise on the value of those skills.

For this topic, I think the appropriate term would be, "Don't diss on people asking for help." (Diss, as in disrespect.)

If you make fun of the person's question, well now you are just "clowning" him.

Maybe you all need to "show him some love." (Help him, as in magicians helping magicians)
Anyway, peace out.
MR
"Excellence is not a single act; it's a habit" Shaq quoting Aristotle after winning NBA MVP.
elmago
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My Royal Road to Card Magic, pg 97 does not even have a third paragraph. It is a description of the Top Palm with drawings.
MR
"Excellence is not a single act; it's a habit" Shaq quoting Aristotle after winning NBA MVP.
munkywrench
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Word! elmago you hit the nail on the head. By the way my copy of Royal Road has the steps to the effect listed with no pictures. I wonder what edition Justin was talking about.
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Jonathan Townsend
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With all due respect, I'd rather show them where to find answers or questions that lead them to the answers they need then spoon feed. If we treat this craft as a learning experience we can get along much better. Just have to leave off the arrogance and demands for others to see us as clever. Believe me, our betters do recognize and enjoy clever so long as its directed at the art and not ego issues. Remember... if we were really smart we could figure out a cure for cancer or end world hunger. Around here it's a good day if we can offer some enjoyment to muggle audiences. I think we can help each other toward that goal.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
munkywrench
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Spoken like a true gentleman Mr. Townsend. By the way there is a cure for cancer as well as a light bulb that will never go out but that would be a whole different topic. Thanks to everyone who responded let's all try to stop the infighting and pass the knowledge we have to those that need it.
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abc
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Quote:
On 2007-05-15 19:57, munkywrench wrote:
Word! elmago you hit the nail on the head. By the way my copy of Royal Road has the steps to the effect listed with no pictures. I wonder what edition Justin was talking about.


P97 paragraph 3
4. You see how simple it is.
That's what mine says.
And that seems to be a good answer.
elmago
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Quote:
On 2007-05-15 20:44, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
With all due respect, I'd rather show them where to find answers or questions that lead them to the answers they need then spoon feed. If we treat this craft as a learning experience we can get along much better. Just have to leave off the arrogance and demands for others to see us as clever. Believe me, our betters do recognize and enjoy clever so long as its directed at the art and not ego issues. Remember... if we were really smart we could figure out a cure for cancer or end world hunger. Around here it's a good day if we can offer some enjoyment to muggle audiences. I think we can help each other toward that goal.


I totally agree. But, "Do a search" is just to obvious and vauge. Pointing in the right direction is help. I also agree with the fact that there was a time that even getting that info was difficult.

I used to think joining clubs like IBM, SAM, and the Magic Castle was a big deal. It thought you really had to prove your worthines to join. Turns out that if the check clears, you are in. I was slightly dissapointed.

I think everyone is agreeing on the same thing here just thinking about it on different levels.

OK, I think I finally got the "pg.97, 3rd paragraph" bit. It is an example of HOW you point someone in the right direction.
MR
"Excellence is not a single act; it's a habit" Shaq quoting Aristotle after winning NBA MVP.
Muckey Spleen
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Quote:
On 2007-05-14 23:02, munkywrench wrote:
So many times I see people asking for help on this site and others being smart asses about answering the questions. Don't hate. Knowledge is the most dangerous weapon in the world. The time you spend responding in a negative way could in fact be used to help someone in their pursuit of knowledge. Searching can be easy but, might not be as easy as it seems. I tried looking for softening my Morgans and I found great info but I had to look really hard to find the answers to my questions. The Café' is here to help us in magic not make us computer gurus. Posting a link to another post is fine. Just don't hate on someone seeking help.

Poor little guy. You had to "look really hard" for something? What an overdeveloped sense of entitlement you have. Lucky for you you're able to label those who don't fall all over themselves to help you "haters," thereby assigning yourself the moral high ground. Nice job!
Justin Style
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Quote:
On 2007-05-15 19:57, munkywrench wrote:
Word! elmago you hit the nail on the head. By the way my copy of Royal Road has the steps to the effect listed with no pictures. I wonder what edition Justin was talking about.



Whoops! Sorry! my bad!!!

I meant: Expert at the card table, page 97 paragraph 3...
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