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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » For the record » » Who invented the egg bag??? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Howard Coberly
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Can anyone tell me who invented the egg bag or maybe the oldest references???


Just Curious,
Howard
"Our town used to be more fortunate...not a single winter passed without the visit of some star.
There used to be famous actors and singers, while today, God only knows! Nobody visits except magicians and organ-grinders. No esthetic satisfaction."
Spellbinder
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According to Milbourne Christopher and others, it was first reported being seen performed by Prevost, in France, in 1584, using a peaked nightcap with a secret pocket. So likely it is even older than that.
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Howard Coberly
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Thank you!

Howard
"Our town used to be more fortunate...not a single winter passed without the visit of some star.
There used to be famous actors and singers, while today, God only knows! Nobody visits except magicians and organ-grinders. No esthetic satisfaction."
Jonathan Townsend
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Anyone doing the trick with a fanny pouch and ipod?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
ursusminor
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What came first? The chicken or the Egg?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist...)

Bjørn
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Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2007-05-16 20:48, Spellbinder wrote:
According to Milbourne Christopher and others, it was first reported being seen performed by Prevost, in France, in 1584, using a peaked nightcap with a secret pocket. So likely it is even older than that.


Can you give a reference for this? The egg bag does not appear in Prevost's book, nor is it mentioned as being performed by him in Christopher's Illustrated History of Magic.
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Spellbinder
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My source was the usually reliable "Encyclopedic Dictionary of Magic" by Bart Whaley. Further references from the same source: Minch in Prevost (1584/1998 tr), 82-83, 222; Milbourne Christopher, "Tracing the Egg Bag", M-U-M (Jul 1991).

As to which came first, the chicken or the egg, it was definitely the egg bag, then the egg, then the bag changes into a chicken... according to Grant and Menge.
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Bill Palmer
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Bart Whaley's book has so many mistakes in it, that it has long since ceased to be an accurate reference for serious scholars. The only less reliable source is Wikipedia.

I can see the way the section in the Prevost book could be misinterpreted to be an egg bag. However, it simply states that there is a "small secret pocket in the side" of the cap. This is a far cry from an egg bag.

The Christopher article does not mention Prevost at all.

And NONE of these ever says that Prevost ever performed any of this material, as you have stated in your previous post.
"The Swatter"

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ursusminor
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Quote:
On 2007-06-16 08:53, Spellbinder wrote:
As to which came first, the chicken or the egg, it was definitely the egg bag, then the egg, then the bag changes into a chicken... according to Grant and Menge.


Thank you, Spellbinder! That solved a big problem...

There could be possibilities for patter-ideas there.

Bjørn
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pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened."
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Pete Biro
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I believe I have seen either DeKolta's or Dibier's names linked with the egg bag... HOWEVER I really think it goes back to early Chinese performers using a bag to produce eggs.
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Spellbinder
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It takes a long time to earn respect; it takes only a thoughtless remark to lose it. I respect the work of Bart Whaley because he does not claim to be a fount of knowledge and seeks correction of errors and additions to the massive collection of magical knowlege he has compiled. To dismiss his work so off-handedly and to insinuate that those who make use of his research are not serious scholars is indeed a thoughtless and disparaging remark. If anyone knows of mistakes in the Whaley Encyclopedic Dictionary and does not endeavor to correct them or bring them to light, but merely disparages the entire work and all those who look to it for information had better have a flawless replacement in the wings all ready for publication or be ready to lose the respect he has thus far earned from years of study and sharing his knowledge.
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Bill Palmer
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I'm surprised at you, Spellbinder. You quote the book without really understanding what it says. I have on more than one occasion reported errors in Whaley's book to him. The fact is that it was published before it was ready. My remark was neither thoughtless nor uninformed.

I stand by what I said.

Don't use my open criticism of a defective reference work to deflect the criticism I made of your obviously uniformed statements about the egg bag. I have all three of these sources in front of me. You have quoted them blindly.
"The Swatter"

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Zhang
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I thought it was malini,i guess I was wrong.
rickmagic1
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All the stories I've ever heard or read were referring to Isaac Fawkes pulling eggs and other assorted items out of a bag...maybe that's a clue...


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jekyllandhyde
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In contrast to who invented the egg bag...Bob White and Eric DeCamps RE-invented it.
foolsnobody
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I don't know if Arnold DeBiere invented the egg bag; apparently it predates him by a couple of centuries. But in the days of Vaudeville he was the magician who was known for the trick. I wish there was some visual and sound record of ALL the performers in "Programmes of Famous Magicians": a little pamphlet that is one of the most valuable magic "books" I own. When you think about it, you *could* work out a fooling method of your own for just about any magical effect without watching a single DVD or even reading a single book. True you would be "reinventing the wheel" in many cases but at least the trick would be a part of you. But this little book is like a peek inside the minds of a lot of great magicians about how to *routine* a magic *act.* Highly recommended!
Harry Murphy
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Isaac Falks used the egg bag as one of his central tricks and ended his life a very rich man when he did in 1731. He was using the egg bag at various "Fairs" in England for decades before he died. He may have even invented it. He is credited with performing several tricks that had not been seen before saying that he was a creative and inventive performer.

However I doubt that we shall ever know who really invented the trick. It may have been old when Isaac performed it. It may have come from the street performers. It is a perfect trick for a street performer being totally angle proof! Whoever invented the trick it is at least 300 years old and still performed today. Now that is a classic of magic!
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MueCard
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Here is a clip from WHALEY'S DICTIONARY:
"May be opaque or semi-transparent. May be faked with a secret pocket or unfaked. The
original bag had an inside pocket. It was first reported in in France in 1584 (by Prevost) using a
peaked nightcap with secretly sewn-in pocket. Next reported in Britain in 1635 (by Hocus
Pocus Junior, 2nd edition). The unfaked version, first reported in France in 1693 (Ozanam),
involved pure sleight of hand. REF: Minch in Prevost (1584/1998 tr), 82-83, 222; Milbourne
Christopher, "Tracing the Egg Bag", M-U-M (Jul 1991), 29; Clarke in Magic Wand (1924), 136-
137; Sphinx (Sep 1910), 146.
Also adopted in India by jadoo-wallahs by 1922 (Branson) and possibly much earlier, as
Vera Breda was doing the Egg Bag in Britain since 1818. REF: Clarke in Magic Wand, V.17
(1928), 178.
The now conventional opaque bag faked with a secret inner compartment was, as noted,
first described in use among French conjurors since 1584 (Prevost; 1760 Fournet; 1774 Mignot;
1774 Augier). Then by British conjurors since 1635 (Hocus Pocus Junior; 1716 Neve; by 1725
to at least 1728 by Fawkes; and 1727 Dean). And in Holland by Witgeest by 1682 (and, I
presume, in his 1679 edition). Consequently, Theo Bamberg's oft-repeated crediting of its
invention to his grandfather, Dutch magician David Leendert Bamberg, in the early 1800s is
clearly wrong, although it suggests that the opaque faked version may still have been relatively
rare. In any case, this model was adopted in America by 1857 (Magician's Own Book, p.33).
All these early bags—faked or not—were fairly large, capable of concealing several eggs or
a medium-sized object such as a hen. Then, around 1891, Herbert A. Albini reduced the socalled
Bamberg Egg Bag to the size of his spread-fingered hand to permit one-handed turning
of the bag inside out. Subsequently this has been the standard size.
The four main modern variants of the faked and opaque small bag are the Albini Egg Bag, Malini Egg Bag, Tarbell Egg Bag, and the Sterling Egg Bag. Minor variants are the Comedy Egg Bag and the Zipper Egg Bag. A radically different principle was introduced by the Mesh Egg Bag with its semi-transparent front panel but faked both with a secret pocket and by black art."
Bill Palmer
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So, I guess the first "Egg Bag" was not Humpty Dumpty's wife. Smile
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Marshall Thornside
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No it couldn't be humpty dumpty's wife...
it would have to be the chicken's wife.
you will remember my name

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