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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » Jay Sankey's Sleight of Hand Secrets with Cards DVD (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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MagicSanta
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Thank you. I was afraid it would be too short but there is more a theme here rather than anything specific to go over. In video I think Ammars series may be the best to learn from. Better routines and you learn sleights as you need them.
Ray Haining
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Sorry, but I disagree about Card on the Ceiling. To my mind, the beauty of the effect is in all those cards fluttering to the floor before the card is finally revealed, in the way I do it, thumbtacked to the ceiling.

There is suspense here, whereas when the deck is contained, there is no suspense--it's just bang!, its there.
jstone
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Quote:
On 2007-07-04 02:55, Ray Haining wrote:
Sorry, but I disagree about Card on the Ceiling. To my mind, the beauty of the effect is in all those cards fluttering to the floor before the card is finally revealed, in the way I do it, thumbtacked to the ceiling.

There is suspense here, whereas when the deck is contained, there is no suspense--it's just bang!, its there.




Ray,

There's no point in really "debating" this type of point. It will go as far as a conversation about what's better, talley-ho or bicycle. In other words it will go nowhere. Everyone has a different opinion on what fits his/her performance style. Some people think the cards fluttering down is better, yet others think that keeping the deck intact is better.

Each person who believes one way or the other will have plenty of experience to back up his/her claim, and s/he will have had plenty of success doing it his/her way. I think for every magician who agrees with the "fluttering" there will be at least one who disagrees.

It's all about venue and personality. Fluttering might be great for one set, but what about the restaurant worker? It's not practical to have the deck flutter every time you do card on ceiling when you're doing it 20 or 30 times a night.

Anyway, I just re-read this before posting it, and it "sounds" cranky, but it's not. Hopefully it won't be taken that way. Smile
Review King
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Quote:
On 2007-07-04 05:47, jstone wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-07-04 02:55, Ray Haining wrote:
Sorry, but I disagree about Card on the Ceiling. To my mind, the beauty of the effect is in all those cards fluttering to the floor before the card is finally revealed, in the way I do it, thumbtacked to the ceiling.

There is suspense here, whereas when the deck is contained, there is no suspense--it's just bang!, its there.




Ray,

There's no point in really "debating" this type of point. It will go as far as a conversation about what's better, talley-ho or bicycle. In other words it will go nowhere. Everyone has a different opinion on what fits his/her performance style. Some people think the cards fluttering down is better, yet others think that keeping the deck intact is better.

Each person who believes one way or the other will have plenty of experience to back up his/her claim, and s/he will have had plenty of success doing it his/her way. I think for every magician who agrees with the "fluttering" there will be at least one who disagrees.

It's all about venue and personality. Fluttering might be great for one set, but what about the restaurant worker? It's not practical to have the deck flutter every time you do card on ceiling when you're doing it 20 or 30 times a night.

Anyway, I just re-read this before posting it, and it "sounds" cranky, but it's not. Hopefully it won't be taken that way. Smile


Very well put. Match the method to the performing situation. You must do this for a living!

Mr. Stone's a worker, folks. Check out his new DVD.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
korttihai_82
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Very nice tape for new people to magic but the problem in my opinion is that same stuff has allready been published like 15 times... Do we really need one more?!?!? Well, decide yourself. I guess there is enough Jay Sankey fanatics to start a world wide cult if Sankey chose to retire from magic some day. I doubt anyone else will bother with this dvd.

J-M
jstone
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Quote:
Very well put. Match the method to the performing situation. You must do this for a living!

Mr. Stone's a worker, folks. Check out his new DVD.


Christopher,

Thanks for the plug. Smile

Murphy's Magic Supplies just received the DVDs on Monday, so my DVD should be available through your favorite magic store soon. Of course there's always my site as well Smile

Thanks again!
Ray Haining
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Jeff Stone wrote: "...but what about the restaurant worker? It's not practical to have the deck flutter every time you do card on ceiling when you're doing it 20 or 30 times a night."

Christopher Kavanagh wrote: "Match the method to the performing situation."

What about matching the trick to the performing situation? I would never do Card on Ceiling in a restaurant environment. After each performance, what do you do, leave the card on the ceiling so that at the end of the night you have 20-30 cards sticking to the ceiling? Do you get a ladder after each performance and climb up it and remove the card?

I only do Card on the Ceiling when I'm performing in someone's home. The card is left thumbtacked to the ceiling as a reminder of the great magician who once performed there.

I'm also of the opinion that the card should be thumbtacked to the ceiling, and not held there by some sort of adhesive.

Stone wrote: "There's no point in really 'debating' this type of point."

I'm not debating anything. Kavanaugh stated his point. He wrote: "I think cartd (sic) on the ceiling is stronger if the deck is contained. Rubber band, case or both." I was just stating my opinion.

Stone wrote: "I think for every magician who agrees with the 'fluttering' there will be at least one who disagrees." I don't think this is true. I think most magicians today contain the deck, an idea originated, I believe, by Michael Ammar.

Which is why I stated my point of view: The Card on Ceiling is one of the great classics of magic. Anyone who has worked with the classics knows their power.

Containing the deck in rubberbands, the card case or anything else, and using adhesive, trivializes the effect, making it just another find-a-card, although in an unusual way, trick.

Holding the cards in your hand, throwing them up to the ceiling, having them hit the ceiling, then watching the cards cascading down--there's suspense in this--what's going to happen?--then seeing a card revealed--their chosen card!--thumbtacked to the ceiling, there's mystery here: how did it happen?

The other way it's quite obvious that the card somehow got free of the rubberbands and onto the back of the deck and got stuck to the ceiling with some sort of adhesive on its back, spit maybe.

I urge anyone who does this trick or is thinking of doing it to try out this method in the right venue--that is, somebody's home. The power of the trick will be obvious to you the first time you do it as you yourself watch the cards cascading from the ceiling.

That is why I wrote this. Not to "debate" with anyone.
Ray Haining
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We should perhaps have two names for what are essentially two different tricks here: Card on Ceiling, the classic, and Card Stuck to the Ceiling, the restaurant version.
jstone
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Quote:
On 2007-07-05 19:48, Ray Haining wrote:
Jeff Stone wrote: "...but what about the restaurant worker? It's not practical to have the deck flutter every time you do card on ceiling when you're doing it 20 or 30 times a night."

Christopher Kavanagh wrote: "Match the method to the performing situation."

What about matching the trick to the performing situation? I would never do Card on Ceiling in a restaurant environment. After each performance, what do you do, leave the card on the ceiling so that at the end of the night you have 20-30 cards sticking to the ceiling? Do you get a ladder after each performance and climb up it and remove the card?



Actually, I leave them on the ceiling. It adds atmosphere to the restaurant when the regulars come in and bring new people, they see cards all over the ceiling. It inspires conversation about how they got there, and usually ends in the person asking for the magician to come to their table.

This is something that many people who make a living at this do (Doc Eason, Michael Ammar, and others).

I will agree that maybe there should be a distinction between "classic" and "modern" card on ceiling. However, I've always done the "secured deck" version, and I've done in just about every venue you can imagine (bars, high school Caféterias, restaurants, people's homes, garages, outdoor patio covers, etc). In fact, I just did it last night at a friend's house on his 20 foot vaulted ceiling.

Believe me... The only thing that the people at the party cared about was the moment the deck hit and a card stuck. I have plenty of friends who have had my card on their ceiling for years, and they always talk about the moment of impact, not the rest of the deck "fluttering" or not "fluttering."

As for me saying it was pointless to "argue" this point, I apologize; argue is the wrong word. I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was just mentioning that everyone is going to have his/her own preference, and well.... good luck changing anyone's mind.

As I mentioned before it's like trying to convince a "tally-ho" enthusiast that "bicycles" are better or vice versa... it just won't happen. Hopefully I haven't upset you. I certainly wasn't looking to offend or pick a fight, so if I came across that way, again, I apologize.

Let us all continue on doing what we've tested to work for our own personal venues. I don't think people should change their venues to match their tricks. I think that people should change their tricks to match their venues. There are, of course, exceptions... there are no hard-and-fast rules.

But you have to understand, I'm not going to cancel my restaurant bookings and corporate parties so that I can go to someone's house and do "Classic" card on ceiling. I'm going to keep my paying gigs and do "modern" card on ceiling. My experience has been that what happens after the card "sticks" doesn't matter. Also, I always leave the card... FOREVER.
Cameron Francis
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A very well known magician in my area does card on ceiling in the restaurant and leaves them there. It does indeed add atmosphere. And gets people talking! I think most people leave the card on the ceiling. Why would the magician take it down?

I've never done the effect myself but it seems to get great reactions.
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Cameron Francis
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A very well known magician in my area does card on ceiling in the restaurant and leaves them there. It does indeed add atmosphere. And gets people talking! I think most people leave the card on the ceiling. Why would the magician take it down?

I've never done the effect myself but it seems to get great reactions.
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Ray Haining
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Jeff, no offence taken. I'm off for a few days and was just fooling around.

I'll say this: you should work out a method to do it my way and try it out. Not in a restaurant, of course.

You might be surprised.
jstone
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Quote:
On 2007-07-06 00:10, Ray Haining wrote:
Jeff, no offence taken. I'm off for a few days and was just fooling around.

I'll say this: you should work out a method to do it my way and try it out. Not in a restaurant, of course.

You might be surprised.


Ray,

I will say that I know that Harry Anderson as a street performer did a card stab effect where he let the cards flutter all over the street, and he left them there. It was his signature piece, and it certainly got people talking.

So you may be right that having the cards flutter may be an a good conversation piece. I'll tell you what: the next time I'm in a situation where I can get away with only doing it once, I'll do it the "classic" way.
Review King
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Good spirited debate folks. As long as no one gets mean, good ideas can come of it.

My Dad turned 80 a couple of weeks ago in a beautiful Hospice Home. Our family and the staff ( Dad had a way of making friends and bringing folks together ) joined in for a "Happy Birthday" salute.

I had been working on handling for card to ceiling, so I had it all ready to go. I had zero plans to do this at Hospice, but went for it.

I placed the rubber band around the deck, but left it barely on the corner so the cards would come apart.It would have went over big, considering the audience, no matter what method. But...I loved the visual of the cards going everywhere.

If I worked in a bar, I would, as Doc Eason did, make it a closer. I'd do it with a deck that was on its way out, and sweep the cards up later.

Of course, maybe after two nights I wouldn't, but that one moment with the cards everywhere and my Dad looking up at the ceiling was priceless for me.

Late into the night, everyone went home and he and I were waitching TV and holding hands and just chatting.

Know what he said? "Christopher, everyone liked the card trick. I think you have glue or tape on the card".

He pause and then said "I just can't figure out the one where you get the card in your wallet".
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Ray Haining
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Jeff Stone wrote: "I'll tell you what: the next time I'm in a situation where I can get away with only doing it once, I'll do it the 'classic' way."

If you do, please make sure the card is attached to the wall by a thumbtack. Very important.

Christopher Kavanagh wrote: "Know what he [referring to his aged father, who had just witnessed a performance of Card on Ceiling] said? 'Christopher, everyone liked the card trick. I think you have glue or tape on the card.'"

Which is why using a thumbtack is just as important as the "fluttering." Not only do the spectators witness a beautiful revelation of a chosen card, but they are also left pondering, How did that card get thumbtacked to the ceiling? Other people who subsequently see the card will also wonder. There is nothing mysterious about a card left "pasted" to the ceiling.

This is the last of what I have to say about Card on Ceiling. I feel good. I've been performing Card on Ceiling for 35 years and wanted to get this point of view out there. I feel that with all the concentration on restaurant and bar work, a lot of magicians are missing out on what is a very powerful magic trick, one of the most powerful of all time.

Thank you.
Ray Haining
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One last point: Card on Ceiling should definitely be used as a finale. Maybe saved as an encore, not to be used in every performance.
jstone
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Ray,

You bring up some good points, but we have to be careful not to limit ourselves. I think you're right about card on ceiling being a closer especially in a house party, hospitality suite, wedding reception or even corporate or stand up, or even when doing strolling magic.

It just so happens that when strolling, you effectively do 20 or so "shows," and you have, therefore, 20 or so closers. I sometimes use two closers, one for the close of the 5 or 10 minutes at the table, and one for when I come back and do the occasional encore. I have Five closers that I keep in my proverbial bag of tricks:

1. Paul Harris' Las Vegas Leaper
2. My Effect called Dream Vacation
3. Dan Fleshman's (spelling) handling of Ring on String - Marketed by Jim Sisti
4. My Handling of Signed Card in Balloon
5. Michael Ammar's handling of Card on Ceiling

These five have served me well. So on any given night, I'll do each one four or five times in a three hour strolling gig.

Occasionaly... I'll do just those five effects in that order for a group that I know will enjoy it.

Anyway, if I'm going to do card on ceiling more than once in a night, and/or I'm going to do more magic after I've done card on ceiling, I just can't let the cards flutter...

I've sort of strayed from my original point here, but what I meant to point out is that it sounds like you are saying that you MUST close your show with card on ceiling... there is NO OTHER alternative. I happen to disagree. There are plenty of closers that are a ton better. Of course it depends on circumstance, personality, venue, etc...

I guess the short of it is that I'm trying to make sure we all (including myself) stay open-minded. Smile
Review King
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Scotty York taught Mike Ammar Card on The Ceiling using wax. Scotty later went to the thumb tac because he felt the other way exposed the method.

If I was wrapping the deck in a bill ( GTFM ) then the tac would be for me.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
jstone
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On 2007-07-08 01:52, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
Scotty York taught Mike Ammar Card on The Ceiling using wax. Scotty later went to the thumb tac because he felt the other way exposed the method.

If I was wrapping the deck in a bill ( GTFM ) then the tac would be for me.



That's seems a little backwards? I'm curious why he felt that having a hidden ball of wax was more revealing than openly showing a thumb tack? Any thoughts?
Cameron Francis
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Part of the mystery of the effect, when the cards are bound or cased, is not only "what is holding the card up?" but also, "how did the card rise up through the deck and escape its bondage?"

If you're using the "flutter method" then a thumb tac makes a lot of sense. In fat, I think Ray is right, if the cards are lose, the thumb tac is probably the best method. If you do the "bound version", then wax makes pefect sense, although the thumb tack would be great for that too.
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