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dot
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Not once did I call you a "thief" or contend that you had "copied" the idea for Workeroo from Mr. Anders' creation. ESA
[/quote]

ESA wrote
it is NOT okay to appropriate another magician’s original, marketed idea (John Anders’ The Direct Link), make some cosmetic changes to it (or not) and sell it as your own, which Mr. Brown is doing with his planned release of Workeroo.

If only James had been first to market with this gimmick, we might have been able to support him. But he wasn't. Workeroo is the same thing as The Direct Link, which is the creation of John Anders of The Netherlands.

It has been confirmed directly to me that Workeroo is conceptually, functionally, and substantively identical to The Direct Link.


ESA also wrote
(This same attitude resulted in Alakazam Magic having to pull Mr. Brown’s “Fancy A Pot Of Jam” dvd because Mr. Brown had insisted on including another magician’s trademark effect.)

What Mr. Brown has chosen not to disclose to anyone on this thread is that his efforts to avoid dealing with Mr. Anders have failed. Mr. Anders has now contacted Mr. Brown and advised him in no uncertain terms that Mr. Brown does NOT have Mr. Anders’ permission to release Workeroo. Mr. Anders has demanded that Mr. Brown cease and desist any and all promotion and sales efforts concerning Workeroo.

ESA

I would defintely say that ESA has a personal vendetta with mr brown which it seems stems from the pot of jam dvd

dot
theboss
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Yes Dot, it would appear so. Regardless of ESA's attempts, the Workeroo has been released with Mr Anders completely happy that this is in no way a copy.

The Pot of Jam DVD was originally pulled as a courtesy rather than from any legal standpoint. Nothing was ripped off, stolen, borrowed or adapted. It does however appear that certain people in magic feel they have some ownership over ideas. We are forever hearing some well known magi admitting that a particular routine or move was independently invented by them at the same time as some other magician. When some relatively unknown English chap happens upon the same concept (note concept, not identical)some over zealous narcissists pulls out the guns.

Notice how often you see routines published that look o so similar to something else, yet no-one cares.

James Brown
Workeroo = http://www.jbmagicman.co.uk/alex.html
Apollo
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Hello James,

I am sad that my first post here on theMagicCafe has to be in this context. I believe your last statement is inconsiderate and less than honest with your readership.

Quote:
"The Pot of Jam DVD was originally pulled as a courtesy rather than from any legal standpoint. Nothing was ripped off, stolen, borrowed or adapted. It does however appear that certain people in magic feel they have some ownership over ideas. We are forever hearing some well known magi admitting that a particular routine or move was independently invented by them at the same time as some other magician. When some relatively unknown English chap happens upon the same concept (note concept, not identical)some over zealous narcissists pulls out the guns. "

I had accepeted your previous apology and agreed to remain silent about your wrong doings to protect your budding reputation. I feel now, that that may have been a mistake when I read your exploitation of my silence.

Since this topic is a discussion of your new product (in which I wish you the best!) I don't think it is the proper forum to address this. Would you like to reconsider your last post or should we open this as a separate topic?

Apollo
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These comments are not aimed at you Apollo. ESA is the target for my annoyance. With regards to the original DVD which was paulled.... I appreciate your feelings and position over the coin on shoulder routine, however, regardless of what you or anyone else says, I DID NOT COPY YOU.

You are with out a doubt a great pickpocket and excellent magician. I have nothing against you. If you do decide to drag the past up again I would assume you still have issues to discuss and pulling the DVD was not enough.

JB
Tim Jahn
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Oh come on man...Lets not start this crap again. This is a thread for the workeroo. If you guys want to ask JB about stuff like this, The right or wrong section is filled with threads in which to do so.
Andrew, (ASW)
The effects on the DVD and lecture notes are far beyond your abilities. (They require mastery of the mechanic's grip.) It would only break your heart.
Sincerely,
Darwin Ortiz.......(This post has got to be in my top 5.)
joseph
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And PMs....
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Einstein)...
Dmann
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This type of system has been around for a long time. Anyone who thinks they have a patent on the idea is sorely mistaken. As to the item itself, I am sure that Workeroo is top notch. If you don't know what this product is, find out! I can't imagine working the streets with my magic without some type of device like this.

Now, I don't know much of what went on before, only what was posted, but I think the wrong end of the stick has been taken and I can understand both sides now, I think we should all just carry on Smile
Rupert Bair
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Having looked at both what James said, I thought he was talking about certain people, and then Apollo replied, then I looked at James reply to that, and can agree completely with James. I think the wrong end of the stick has been taken, and I don't think James post was directed at anyone in particular, but overall in Magic (look at Harry Loryane, any mention of anything remotely similar and he's becomes the Spanish inquisition), you need to re-read the post in the first place to understand that.

Again this is not directed at any one person this is just a generalization of what happens in these kind of situations...unfortunately.

This is where so many things blow up out of proportion on forums where you can't understand the tone and generally things just get misinterpreted. The fact James pulled his dvd's just in courtesy gave me a much higher opinion of him.

I hope you can resolve this properly and privately.

Now, as said, this isn't the place to discuss this, back to the Workeroo.

M:C
dot
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Quote:
On 2007-07-28 01:18, Klepto wrote:
Hello James,

I am sad that my first post here on theMagicCafe has to be in this context. I believe your last statement is inconsiderate and less than honest with your readership.

Quote:
"The Pot of Jam DVD was originally pulled as a courtesy rather than from any legal standpoint. Nothing was ripped off, stolen, borrowed or adapted. It does however appear that certain people in magic feel they have some ownership over ideas. We are forever hearing some well known magi admitting that a particular routine or move was independently invented by them at the same time as some other magician. When some relatively unknown English chap happens upon the same concept (note concept, not identical)some over zealous narcissists pulls out the guns. "

I had accepeted your previous apology and agreed to remain silent about your wrong doings to protect your budding reputation. I feel now, that that may have been a mistake when I read your exploitation of my silence.

Since this topic is a discussion of your new product (in which I wish you the best!) I don't think it is the proper forum to address this. Would you like to reconsider your last post or should we open this as a separate topic?

Apollo



hi apollo,

I think you should take this up with esa, he was the one to bring this up. no offence but the stuff you do on your dvd isn't really original, you are original but the tricks are standard stuff. don't get me wrong, but why is it when a magician from the usa brings out a dvd which contains one or two variations of tricks which have been in print nothing is mentioned yet as soon as a magician from the uk brings out a dvd all hell breaks loose.

a couple of points to take in, why didn't anyone have a go at the guy who said he was going to bring out the silent butler, surely if esa was really bothered about james brown copying anders why the heck wasnt this mentioned. (personal vendetta)

coin on shoulder and coin under watch are so old so no one has the right to claim them as there own whick means that anyone can put them onto a dvd if that's part of there routine. why the heck has no one had a go at daryl, Ammar or columbini for doing variatoins of stuff (personal vendetta)

jerry sadowitz was spot on in the crimp, oh well yet some of the best magic has come from th uk.

dot
roy walton is king
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matt.magicman
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Thanks james,
and all the best with your workaroo product, I'll be getting my needle and thread out tonight!
thanks for another fantastic release,
and I wish you all the best with your past, present and future releases...........
E.S. Andrews
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Looks as though the storm still has not passed. Since I last posted here, ecopeel, Heygeno, Timj32, matt.magician, and now “dot” attacked ME for seeking to have John Anders consulted and properly credited for the core concept at the heart of Workeroo, i.e., a belly servante that permits retrieval of vanished items from the trouser pocket. Timj32 charged me with having an “agenda,” while “dot” accused me of having a “personal vendetta” against James. Dot speculated that this alleged vendetta stemmed from the “Pot of Jam” DVD, and both Dot and James attributed my strong feelings on the matter to xenophobia against magicians from the U.K. Rather than respond in kind, I’d like to see if we can turn this into something positive. Also, because Workeroo has now been released and has itw own topic in the “Tricks & Effects” section, we might as well use this thread to explore the issue of ownership of, and credit for magic products and routines.

I truly was befuddled why anyone would shoot the messenger here, until, that is, I read dot’s and James’ (theboss) posts of July 28. I have since conluded that we were talking at cross purposes. Dot and James appear to share a narrow view of what is and isn’t intellectual and creative property in the magic world and when credit should or shouldn't be given, whereas my view is broader. James’ view is that selling a product or routine is fair game, no matter how similar it might be in concept or execution to a product or routine previously released by someone else, so long as the current seller did not “copy” the previously released product or routine. This was his defense to releasing Workeroo without consulting or crediting John Anders: “I saw no reason to speak to Mr. Anders as I knew this was not copied from him.” (theboss, July 1.) This is also James’ defense to Apollo Robbins concerning the coin-on-shoulder routine: “[R]egardless of what you or anyone else says, I DID NOT COPY YOU.”

Dot has a similarly narrow view of when credit or permission is required before marketing a similar product or routine. Dot believes that if the “trick” on which someone’s original product or routine is based is “old” (“standard stuff”), then “no one has the right to claim them as their [sic] own which [sic] means that anyone can put them onto a dvd if that’s part of their [sic] routine.” (dot, July 28.) Now, I happen to disagree—strongly—with James’ and dot’s exceedingly narrow views of what constitutes intellectual and creative property in the magic world, but those views do explain their positions concerning Workeroo and the related issue concerning the Pot of Jam DVD. I assume that those who attacked me share those views.

Let’s take dot’s view first. If the “trick” is “old” or “standard,” then nothing original or creative that anyone does with that trick is worthy of credit or protection. Under that view, Tommy Wonder could not claim his original routine with the Cups and Balls (a VERY old “trick”) as his own and would not be entitled to credit or protection should some bloke decide to put out a dvd featuring a two-cup and balls routine where the decorative pom-pom from the sock housing the cups repeatedly appears under one of the cups, climaxing with the sock itself appearing under one of the cups. Well, I disagree. Tommy took a standard “trick,” and through creative force and sweat, created something original and non-standard. It became a signature effect for him. He wrote it down and marketed it, both in book form and via dvd. I think the hypothetical bloke who seeks to sell “his” two-cups and balls routine without credit or permission is wrong. Dot apparently believes otherwise. It is no use arguing the point because we come from different perspectives. (I use the Tommy Wonder example out of convenience because I happen to have his “The Books of Wonder” open to make a point in the next paragraph.)

Now James’ view: Provided I did not “copy” a previously marketed product or routine, the creator of that previously marketed product or routine is not entitled to credit, consultation, or protection, even if my product or routine is substantially similar or identical in concept, design, or execution. Again, I disagree, but it is no use arguing the point because we would be arguing from irreconcilable perspectives. Nevertheless, let me attempt to put myself in James’ shoes:

I am sitting at home, rummaging through old magic texts and come across some references to the ancient body servante. Maybe I have access to Vol. II of Tommy Wonder’s “The Books of Wonder” and I read his three-page exposition on the belly servante that Tommy designed to be worn under the cumberbund. I think to myself, that could be a great utility device if only the stuff you dump into it could be more easily retrieved. It would be sort of like a jacketless Topit. Hmm, topit, jacket, topit, hey! That was the same problem with the Topit until it was modified to permit real-time retrieval of items through the jacket pocket. I wonder whether I could modify a belly servante to permit retrieval of items through . . . . through . . . the trouser pocket! Eureka! So I get to work in my shop. I hammer something out, sacrifice some pants, and before you know it, I’ve got a working model. Great! I use it in some performances and it works gangbusters. My entrepreneurial instincts kick in. I could SELL this to other magicians. I make a teaser video and post it on The Magic Café. Some bloke sends me a PM. He says some fellow in The Netherlands already had the same idea and sold it as The Direct Link. Bummer. He says I should contact the guy and he gives me his contact information. A couple of other members notice the same thing and post about it. Double bummer. Maybe I should get in touch with this Netherlands fellow and get some info about The Direct Link. Nope! Why should I? I didn’t COPY this other guy’s thingy. I didn’t even know about it. I am sure mine must be different somehow, but even if it isn’t, I didn’t copy him so why should I credit him, contact him, or concern myself with him?

Well, obviously, I disagree with this rather pinched view of intellectual and creative ownership of concepts, products, and routines in the magic world and of giving credit to originators. It is not for me to say whether my more expansive view is “better” than James’ and dot’s views, but it is the one I am more comfortable with and the one I personally believe is more appropriate for the small, creative world we share as magic performers, creators, and enthusiasts. I do know that Mr. Anders, who originated the concept that is at the heart of Workeroo, is proprietary towards that concept, which he made clear to James in reaching his accommodation with him and giving his blessing to Workeroo: “I must stress the point (for your own best!!) that THE IDEA FOR RETRIEVING ITEMS FROM THE POCKET FROM THE ORIGINAL HOFZINZER BELLY SERVANTE IS MINE!! (The emphasis and punctuation in that sentence is Mr. Anders’.) And I do know that, had I been in James’ shoes, I would have contacted Mr. Anders after being alerted to the existence of The Direct Link. But again, that decision would have driven by my broader view of intellectual and creative ownership and of entitlement to credit. In the end, Mr. Anders contacted James and Workeroo was released with Mr. Anders' blessing (and, I presume, with credit given to Mr. Anders).


Oh, and dot, regarding the question whether Mr. Mann should credit Mr. Anders in releasing The Silent Butler, I think he most certainly should if The Silent Butler is “a belly servante” that employs Mr. Anders’ idea “for retrieving items from the pocket." And yes, if that is the case, I think Mr. Mann should credit Mr. Anders even if Mr. Mann did not “copy” The Direct Link or get the idea from Mr. Anders in devising The Silent Butler. And yes, if The Silent Butler is a belly servante that permits retrieving items from the pocket, and Mr. Mann is not familiar with The Direct Link, then I think Mr. Mann should contact Mr. Anders or at the very least get his hands on The Direct Link to determine whether The Silent Butler is sufficiently different in design and execution to make it a different product. And get this: Assuming that The Silent Butler is a belly servante that permits retrieving items from the trouser pocket, I think that Mr. Mann should also credit James because Workeroo employs the same concept and was on the market first. Oh, wait. My mistake. I thought Mr. Mann was from the UK. Never mind. Smile


ESA
BMWGuy
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E.S. Andrews, I was going to ask a moderator to get rid of your pointless post, but I think it should stay for all to see how silly and pathetic you are

ALEX
PRESET by Alex Alejandro & Dan Harlan now available for a special introductory price!
Lawrens Godon
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We shouldn't feed this troll anymore imho...
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