If you are going to consider one cup and ball routines to be the equivalent of chop cup routines, then the consideration should go the other way. One cup and ball routines were around before the chop cup existed. So a chop cup routine is essentially a one cup and ball routine, and not the other way around, to my way of thinking.

This would also mean that the one cup routines were also closer to being a bowl routine than I had first felt.

Recalling Don Alan's work with the Benson Bowl routine, in his last years, his bowl was deep enough that it would accommodate a large ball bearing, which he then challenged the spectator to remove from the bowl. They couldn't do it, because there was not enough room to get any purchase on the ball.

Some of the "new" principles used in the cups and balls were actually introduced as part of one cup routines. For example, the drop move that Eddy Ray seems to think he originated is in the Tarbell book in Crandall's one cup routine.

I'll admit there is a problem figuring out what needs to be included and what doesn't. For example, the balls under the hat is essentially a bowl routine. OTOH, Arthur Trace's routine would probably qualify. It's not so much that it's about cups and balls as it is about objects and covers. Even Scot referred to the routine being done with saltcellar covers.

O.K. now I see where you are coming from- I just didn't think of it that way. I suppose my "map" of magic often begins with a cronilogical consideration of what I experienced as a youth and what I know now.

I actulally remember asking a proprietor of a magic shop, "what is a chop cup" when I was I guess 12 years old and saw one displayed in the glass case (I might of thought that since there was only one cup it implied that he'd "chop down" the price. The fact that my familialarity with "cups and balls" predates my first encounter with the chop cup (adams sets/ descriptions in library books)accounts for the reason why I thought of it as I had above.

Interesting...but stupid

Not necessarily stupid. Just different points of view. In all of this neither you nor I are either right or wrong. We just have our own opinions. You explained yours, I explained mine. The one that counts, in the long run, is the viewpoint of the fellow making the list.

Granted, there are some things that I consider cups and balls that I did not consider to be so before I did certain bits of research. When I had the first sets of acetabula constructed, I did not realize until I had them in hand that they were more like a shell game or Indian cups than the ones we are accustomed to now. So I include shell games in my collection.

Opinions change.

When I first started into magic, I absolutely disdained the use of gimmicks. But after seeing some real masters of magic use them the way they were intended, I became more amenable to them. I was a "magician-driven" performer, rather than an "audience-driven" performer.

Yes, where do you draw the line? It's interesting when you say that, "It's not so much that it's about cups and balls as it is about objects and covers".

I don't want to get too off topic here, but it seems that reducing what we do to the lowest common denominator can make things clearer to us as performers, and allow us to better select props so that they fit our character and style of performing.

A set of Sherwood's might not be for everybody, but I like the idea that every magician could choose to perform his own version of "objects and covers" as a homage to the classic cups and balls.

And indeed as the growing list proves many have.

Where you draw the line depends on how you perceive the trick. I must admit that it was Jonathan Townsend who first pointed out to me that it was about objects and covers. In a way, there is a tenuous relationship between the cups and balls and Matrix, but I doubt that anyone would ever confuse Matrix with the cups and balls.

If you are assembling a compilation, maybe the best thing to do is not so much to draw a line as it would be to compartmentalize.

In this case, that's up to James.

New and Updated List ....



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CHOP CUP ROUTINES
------------------

Aldo Colombini - Chop cup with different color balls
Bill Palmer - Merlin Chop Cup
Dai Vernon - 1 cup with Dollar Bills
Dennis Loomis - Micro Chop Cup
Don Alan - Chop Cup


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1 CUP ROUTINES
----------------

Bill Palmer - 1 cup
Bobby Bernard - 1 cup
Bruno Hennig (Joro) - 1 cup
Carl Andrews - 1 cup
Carl Cloutier - 1 cup
Cy Enfield - 1 cup
David Regal - 1 cup
John Carney - 1 cup
Kosmo - 1 cup
Larry Jennings - 1 cup
Paul Daniels - 1 cup
Pete Biro - 1 cup
Rene lavand - 1 cup
Senator Crandall - 1 cup
Senor Mardo - 1 cup


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2 CUPS ROUTINES
-----------------

Andrew Galloway - 2 cups
Carl Andrews - 2 cups
David Williamson - 2 cups
Flicking Fingers - 2 cups
Gary Ouellet - 2 cups
Manuel Muerte - 2 cups
Milton Kort - 2 cups
Sawn Dante - 2 cups
Scott F. Guinn - 2 cups
Senor Mardo - 2 cups
Steven Tucker - 2 cups and steel balls finale
Tommy Wonder - 2 cups


-----------------
3 CUPS ROUTINES
-----------------

Abraham Bongers - 3 cups
Aldo Colombini - 3 cups
Al Schneider's Street Cups - 3 cups
Al Schneider's Classic Cups - 3 cups
Alex Emsley - 3 cups
Alexander De Cova - 3 cups
Andy Comic - 3 cups
Bill Tarr - 3 cups
Billy Kidd - 3 cups
Bob Farmer - 3 cups and one ball
Bob Reads - 3 different cups (Penultimate cups and balls routine)
Bob Sheets - 3 cups + one doll's head finale
Bosco - 3 cups
Bruce Elliot - 3 cups
Bruno Hennig (Joro) - 3 cups
Burtini - 3 cups
Carl Andrews - 3 cups
Charles Bertram - 3 cups
Charlie Miller - 3 cups
Conus - 3 cups
Dai Vernon - 3 cups
Dan Fleshman - 3 cups
Dennis Loomis - 3 cups
Danny Hustle - 3 cups
Dick Williams - 3 cups (with an audience member for stage)
Dominique Duvivier - 3 cups (2 people, 3 balls finale with fourth cup production)
Doug Conn - 3 cups
Dr. Daly - 3 cups
Eddie Joseph - 3 cups
Ed Marlo - 3 cups
Edward Browne - 3 cups
Edwin Sachs - 3 cups
Ellis Stanyon - 3 cups
Eric DeCamps - 3 cups
Eric Evans - 3 cups
Ferenc Galambos - 3 cups
Flicking Fingers - 3 cups
Frank Garcia - 3 cups
Fred Kaps - 3 cups
Hal Levy - 3 different style cups and 3 different colored balls
Henri Decremps - 3 cup
Henry Holava - 3 cups (with square sponges
Gali Gali - 3 cups + 2 live chicks
Gary Animal - 3 cups and a rubber chicken
Gary Kurtz - 3 cups
Ger Cooper - 3 cups
Glenn Bishop - 3 cups
Gordon Bruce - 3 cups (plastic)
Guyot - 3 cups
Hans Trixer - 3 cups
Houdini - 3 cups
Irv Weiner - 3 cups
Jack Bateman - 3 cups - "Rub-A-Dub-Dub" routine
Jason Latimer - 3 cups
Jay Sankey - 3 cups with a 4th cup produced as part of the finale
Jean Hugard - 3 cups
Jeff Moche - 3 cups
Jerry Sadowitz - 3 cups
Jersey Jim - 3 cups
Jim Cellini - 3 cups
Jimmy Lake - 3 cups
Jim Merlini - 3 cups
Jim Ryan - 3 cups
Joe Berg - 3 cups
John Bannon - 3 cups
John Carney - 3 cups
John George - 3 cups
John Mendoza - 3 cups
John Platt - 3 cups
Johnny Ace Palmer (USA) - 3 cups (live chicks as final loads)
Johnny Fox - 3 cups + one wine glass finale
Johnny Paul - 3 cups
Johnny Thompson - 3 cups
Ken Brooke - 3 cups
Kristle - 3 cups
Kurt Ehrler - 3 cups (combo cup routine)
Larry Jennings - 3 cups
Laurie Ireland - 3 cups
Lewis Ganson - 3 cups
Manuel Muerte - 1 cup
Marianne Heller - 3 cups
Mark Raffles (UK) - 3 cups (with chick final loads)
Mark Wilson - 3 Cups
Max Malini - 3 cups
Michael Ammar - 3 cups
Michael Vincent - 3 cups
Mike Rogers - 3 cups
Milton Kort - 3 cups
Nick Nickolas - 3 cups
Nick Trost - 3 cups
O.W. Meyer - 3 cups
Ozanam - 3 cups
Pablo Minguet - 3 cups
Patrick Page - 3 cups
Paul Gertner - 3 cups
Penn and Teller - 3 Cups 4 hands
Pete Biro - 3 cups
Prince of Wales - 3 cups
Professor Hoffmann - 3 cups
Rafael Benatar - 3 cups
Randy Wakeman - 3 cups
Richard Kaufman - 3 cups
Ricky Dunn - 3 cups and live chicks finale
Ricky Jay - 3 cups
Robert-Houdin - 3 cups
Robert White - 3 cups
Ron Jamison - 3 cups
Ross Bertram - 3 cups
Roy Walton - 3 cups
Sawn Greer - 3 cups
Scotty York - 3 cups
Senor Mardo - 3 cups
Shawn Farquhar - 3 cups with solid-cups ending
S. Leo Horowitz (Mohammed Bey) - 3 cups
Sonny Holiday - 3 cups
Steve Draun - 3 cups
Tom Franks - 3 cups
Tom Mullica - 3 cups
Tom Osborne - 3 cups


------------------------------------------
2 CUPS ROUTINES WITH ANOTHER COVER ITEM
------------------------------------------

J.N. Hofzinser - 2 cups & a hat
Tim Ellis - 2 cups and a juke box


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3 CUPS ROUTINES WITH ANOTHER COVER ITEM
------------------------------------------

Gazzo - 3 cups + 1 hat
Kirk - 3 cups and a bell
Peter Wardell - 3 cups & a hat


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MORE THAN 3 CUPS ROUTINE
---------------------------

Bill Palmer - 12 cups
David Regal - 6 cups


--------------------------------
INDIAN CUPS AND BALLS ROUTINE
--------------------------------

Andrew Elliot - 3 Indian cups
Charlie Miller - 3 Hindu Style Cups
John Platt - 3 Indian cups
Rinkhausen - 3 Indian Cups


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BOWL ROUTINES
---------------

Roy Benson - Benson Bowl


--------------------------------
UNIQUE COVER OBJECTS ROUTINES
--------------------------------

Bruno Hennig (Joro) - A routine with a bell
Ian Adair - flower pots and "seeds" routine
John Ramsay - 2 Ice cream containers
Jos Bema (Tommy Wonder) - Solid Can routine
Lewis Ganson - 3 Felt Bags

I need some assistance on the list ...

Based on the inputs I get, some of the performers do not have their full names.

Could I have the full name of the performers? And may I also know which is their last names? That way I can work out another version based on last name first. Thanks!

What about Paul Gertner's routine with the hat and dice?

Could I have more info on Paul Gertner's routine with the hat and dice? How many dice did he use? What was his finale (final load)? What hat did he use?

With this bit of info I can quickly put him into the appropriate place in the list.

You would noticed that the list is now categorized.

The final loads were two large dice. These are available from Kidwell. He used four 1 inch dice, a two inch die and a four inch die.

Thanks, Bill. Paul Gertner's work will be added to the list in the appropriate section. His name will be added on the next updated list post.

David Roth has an Innovative routine with Chop cup and different collored balls.
Roth routine is written up in one of the New York Magic Symposium books
Eric DeCamps also has a chop cup routine and a three cup routine neither of which is in print currently.

Johnathon Pendragon has a standard three cup and ball routine He did it impromtu for us at Magi-fest a long time ago.

Thanks, Mike (Mobius). Your input will be added to the list on the next update.

Were Fabian and Burtini the same people? Was his full name Fabian Burtini?

This always perplexed me.

-todd

We have a couple of names in the list that is not complete. Without the full name of the performers mentioned in the list we will not know the real person, as in the case of Burtini and Fabian.

I would really appreciate if some of the names mentioned in the list can be ammended to the full name. I really have no idea what their real names are.

Could anyone help me out on this?

May I have the real names (full names) of the following performers?

Guyot - 3 cups
Kristle - 3 cups
O.W. Meyer - 3 cups
Ozanam - 3 cups
Dr. Daly - 3 cups
Burtini - 3 cups
Bosco - 3 cups
Kosmo - 1 cup

Thanks for helping out.

Guy Hollingsworth - 3 cups
Mike Perlman 3 cups,2 cups and one cup routines I also do a pretty standard Chop cup routine.

Ozanam's name was Jacques Ozanam
Guyot's name was Edme-Gilles Guyot
O. W. Meyer was Orville W. Meyer
Burtini was William Powell
Dr. Daly was Jacob Daly, M.D.
Bosco was Bartolomeo Bosco

Fabian and Burtini were different people. Actually there were three Fabians. The first one was E. Ray Griffiths, who was also the editor of the Journal of the British Magical Society. Aldo Colombini also used the name for a while. And there was also the "singer" Fabian Forte. But I don't think he ever did any magic.

Thanks, Mike. The names will be added to the list on the next update.

Thanks, Bill. The list will be more updated with the full names of the performers.