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joshlondon17 Special user San Diego, CA 685 Posts |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
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under About Is it really necessary to trash other styles of magic to make it appear you are better than them? It is a negative approach, much like the negative political slamming of candidates. This method in selling yourself is a turnoff and make it clear what type of personality you protray. There are many ways to make yourself look and sound like a professional, tearing down other performers is not one of them. Why did this strike a nerve, because I am that "cheesy" Magican in a tuxedo, that pulls rabbits out of hats, makes balloon animals and tells stupid jokes. And I do saw ladies in half. This is what my market clients want, "A real Magician". My audience (the parents of children, daycare centers, PTA/PTO organizations) is much different than what you are pitching towards. Josh, I do not have hurt feelings, it is what you said that jumps out and it is what I remember about you. If this happens to me, does it happen to others. If you desire to correct this then tell the viewer what they will see and remember about you, or more importantanly, what they will receive from your performance, what benefits they will get by hiring you. What you can do for them. Dennis
Dennis Michael
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joshlondon17 Special user San Diego, CA 685 Posts |
Dennis,
What I'm about to say is said in a way that is NOT condescending in anyway. Just thought I'd point that out. My job as an entertainer and marketer is to make you and everyone else that sees my site, business card, brochure, video, etc. remember me. I was so nervous about the whole being in jail thing. How would people view me? What would they think? But, the most nerve racking question I had was, will I be remembered? And in a somewhat perversed way of "cutting down" other magicians I achieved that goal with my site and other advertising materials. And my hope is that others remember me for being me. Being someone who is brash, funny, sarcastic, someone who smokes Marlboro reds on stage and drinks Johnny Walker Black out of a flask that has a rabbit coming out of a hat that almost looks like cheap clip art. That is my character and I feel I achieved it. I don't think this rambling of mine is making much sense, but for some reason I feel like I've just spilled my guts writing and feel like I've achieved what I'm after... to be rememebered! As for what I can do for the clients? I'd like to think I can give them a show that they'll remember as being so different from every other magician they've seen on tv or otherwise. And from your comments, Dennis, I feel I've accomplished that. Seems kind of stupid that I'm in a round-about way thanking you, but I am. Also, this is just my character, but is ways an extension of me. I have been in jail, I do smoke reds, and I do drink Johnny Walker. And I'd like to think I'm sarcastically funny! It works for me and only me. The magician in a tux works for you. And that's all that matters. It's about the show. Thanks! Josh London P.S. I think my comments above and site will be somewhat of a controversy and don't mind any comments about it. I can at times be rough on people here, so when I put my site up for review I expect the same. |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
I agree 100% with Den. With your website marketing, I feel slander of this sort only conveys a really bad negative image and impression in the mind of the prospect who is reading the site. I always want to stay fresh and polite and professional as I can in all my marketing language. It is not necessary for me to use a slander style approach to get folks to like what I do. I sell myself based on what I can directly do and provide to them to solve their needs. I think a layperson readihng this may be taken back byit instead of it helping you.
Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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joshlondon17 Special user San Diego, CA 685 Posts |
I think that my target market will see it differently. I really don't think it's as bad as it sounds. I told my Visual Developer, Chris Wilson) that when I post it on the Café for a review that they're going to scrutinize every word of my website.
And you've done just that and I'm perfectly fine with that. Mostly becuase I think you'll never forget my brand. Josh |
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itshim Elite user Milton Keynes 417 Posts |
Your so wrong! I'll have forgotten your site by tomorrow. There was nothing in that site that said to me, this is a magician I want to book! The best things in it were the quotes but even those said to me, this guy doesn't do anything original. Bill in Lemon, Floating Bill, I want to hear your customers talking about tricks that I don't know that every magician does.
Before you accuse me of being another magician that doesn't like being attacked, I'm not a magician, I'm a juggler. I look at websites and want to see something that sells the performer to me as someone I want to use. There is a discussion going on on a juggling newsgroup about whether websites should be first or third person. The best comment so far is that they should be second person, written from the customers point of view. Your website is all me, me, me. Nigel
I knew a man who kept saying "pliers, pincers, scissors". He was speaking in tongs.
www.itshim.co.uk |
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joshlondon17 Special user San Diego, CA 685 Posts |
Nigel,
I'd hope you wouldn't book me, I'd probably offend you. Plus, again YOU'RE NOT MY MARKET! My market is theater shows, comedy clubs, general public shows where people pay money to see me and some corporate work. Originality... Here's a tip for originality; Try not to be an entertainer for all types of venues and audiences. It's fundamental in marketing. Performers so often get lumped in with each other as corporate performers, weddings, parties, etc. It's terrible marketing. I respect many here; Danny Doyle (despite past things), Kyle, Dennis, and many others mostyl in other sections. But, when someone who has a terrible looking site and is a "general performer" as I like to call them, starts telling me about marketing, I have to stand up and say something. Sorry if I've been a little brash, but from the looks of your site, Nigel, you're in no position to tell me about originality or marketing. Josh London |
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Al Kazam the Magic Man Inner circle Living in Perth Western Australia 1042 Posts |
I'm no pro, but I"m with the other guys here at the moment.
Brash I can handle, I just feel there is a much better way to promote your show. All the best, JoJo
Magic guy in Perth Australia
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
From a customer's point of view, I would say you offer too many reasons not to like you and not to trust you. Then at the end of doing all that, you try to give them some reasons to like you and trust you (client list, testimonial quotes, video). It is one thing to be honest with them, but it is another to disqualify them before they have a chance to qualify themselves. You are "too open" with them before you need to be.
In some ways, a website is meant to qualify your potential customers and weed out the ones that might not mesh well with you (can't afford you, won't blend well with your personality, aren't looking for your style of entertainer, your act isn't suitable for their market, etc.) On the other hand, a website is meant to excite your potential customer about seeing and hiring your show. It is meant to drive them to want you, and to call you, and to hire you, even if you cost way more than the others. It is meant to make you more likeable (customers hire you because they like you and trust you). I have read in other posts that you are a Dan Kennedy fan. He is brash with his approach, and disqualifies prospects right and left. Then again, he is in high demand because of things he has done earlier in his career. It is ok for him to position himself as elusive, because he is in demand. After saying that, my question is this -- can you afford to be elusive and disqualify a larger than average number of prospects? I don't know the answer to that. Only you do. - Donald P.S. Here is something specific about my point of making prospects not like you and not trust you... In most of the venues I know, the fact that you have done jail time is not a role model they want to pay for. Instead of hiring someone who has done some crime, and paid the price for it, they would rather hire someone who has faced the same pressures, temptation, and resisted. I'd rather learn from someone who can show me how to live life right, rather than someone who can show me how to live life wrong. You come across as boasting of your wrongdoing. I'll bet a lot of Corporate America sees this the same way.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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joshlondon17 Special user San Diego, CA 685 Posts |
Donald,
I really do see where you're coming from about the jail thing. I've thought about it and talked it over with a number of people and recently hired a publicist and he said that the jail story would be a great selling point for newspapers, magazines, etc. And I do firmly belive that as well. I think people want to see someone who's different than everyone else available. While toying with different marketing ideas and ad copy, I heard a story about an artist who, 7 years ago, punched a security guard in China (or maybe another Asian country) and spent a week in jail for it. He is now only famous because of that. Every Press Release and article about him includes the story about him in a Chinese jail. I'm going for the same thing. I want to be famous with the general public and I'm starting to focus on theaters and comedy clubs. My publicist only recently has been sending Press Releases. We're focusing on 5 magazines/newspapers in the San Diego area to see how the public views it. So it can always be changed. I'm also financially stable to be as elusive and picky as I want. I work as a Paramedic (but currently on worker's comp.) and charge an above average fees for the shows I do perform, which are about 6 shows a month. Josh |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
Josh,
I hope you do not feel or see me or place me in that category of "when someone who has a terrible looking site and is a "general performer" as I like to call them, starts telling me about marketing, I have to stand up and say something." I like to think that I am a person who tells it as I see it and who respects everyone here at the Café for their opinions and their thinking. I do respect you greatly for posting here and for stating your opinions and your thinking. there is nothing wrong with that and I thank you for it. For us to get a better sense of what you are after, this information exchange has to happen and I welcome it. I have been a graphic designer and into marketing for well over 20+ years now and I like to think that I offer feedback that is based on this experience and based on trying to honestly help anyone who ask an opinion of me. This is who I am and I really do want to help anyone who seeks it. I hope my information is of help to you. However, I first must say that anyone at all has a right to stating their opinion. That goes for Nigel and anyone here who has posted so far. if you are posting your site on the Café with athread topic of "New Website: Please Comment", then what do you really expect from people? I am not trying to be harsh at all. I am really trying to understand your thinking is all. That topic post and title implies that you want honest and open feedback and opinions from anyone and everyone. If that is so, then is not Nigel's opinion any better then ens or my own? You should be open to all feedback and opinions. It does not mean you have to take all advice. It means showing respect to gain respect. It means if you ask for feedback, then you thak folks for giving it to you regardless if you really disagree. You asked for feedback and folks are giving it to you and I think that is the right way to go about it. Now as a designer myself and a magician who really is into and studies marketing, I really like the look and feel of the site. It has a professionally designed quality. I like the easy navigation of the site and it loads pretty fast allowing for ease in load time. This is all very positive things and that works well for you. However, I must admit that the conent of the site is what bothers me a bit. I do not think it is as robust or sells you as best as it can. Now it is totally ok to be different, unique and have a style all your own. That is what every magician should do. We can not and should not be cookie cutter magicians. If your style is brash and a bit in your face, then there is noithing wrong with that if it works for you. I applaude you for trying to create a different personna. However, I feel when marketing to any target market, especially to theaters and the coporate world, then I feel the way you convey this in your site needs to be handled differently. I think you can still get the point across that you are different and unique and sell that aspect of you but do so in a way that does not turn the prospect off from the start. It is all about first impressions as I am sure you are very well aware. Perhaps instead of saying that you are different by contrasting yourself aginst the "typical" image of a magician, maybe you do so in a different way that will get the same message across but I think in a more professional manner. For example if you are targeting more theaters and professionals and coporate america, maybe you do something like this (just an idea): "I know that you pride yourself in creating a company and image to your market that is unique, different and that sets you apart from others in your industry. This brand image is what makes you and your company successful and keeps your clients coming back to you time and again. This is why I have made it a policy to be a completely different kind of magician. I have developed a style and show that is unique and vastly different then what you may think of from a magician. I pride myself in creating a total entertainment experience that not only is fun, but solves the many problems you may be directly faced with." In this simple example I feel you are still saying the same thing that you want to say, but now you are saying it in terms that the prospect can totally relate to. You are not using such harsh negative words to get the same point across. In this manner, the prospect understands that you are different and understands why that is important to you. I really do hope this helps. I will try and look over your site further and offer more information, onservations and ideas that I feel might benefit you. It is my pleasure. Thank you for allowing me to post my thoughts here. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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joshlondon17 Special user San Diego, CA 685 Posts |
Kyle,
I want you to know I respect your opinions and comments. I do not see you as a "typical" magician. With that said here we go: I guess I'm trying to convey that I'm fading out of corporate magic and now all I'm looking to do and my number one goal is to be in the public eye. My character/brashness/etc. all work together for me and that's how people remember me and my show. I do would be interested in what part of my site you'd put the copy you've written and what you'd be interested in being deleted. I only ask this becuase I am not clear as to what makes my site sound so in your face. Another thing is that I've showed this site to different age groups and they all love it. They think the story about jail, the look, video and everything about the site is really sleek and (I think most importantly) interesting. Kyle, I want you to know that I really do value your opinion here and welcome anything you say and do value other's opinions. But, when someone says, "You're not original..." as Nigel said above, I take great offense to that. Simply because I am original. And looking at his site he's the un-original one for making it look and feel like so many other magicians/entertainers websites. And what I said (in the above posts) is in response to his opinions is simply my opinion on his comments. It seemed like he wasn't the right person to judge my site. And that was wrong of me to think, but I really want people who know what they're talking about (marketing-wise) to respond with some good feedback because when people ask questions I try my best to help out with some solid info. Josh |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
Josh,
thank you my friend for your response and information. I do appreciate it and your opinions and I think highly of what you do, how you do it and what you are trying to acomplish. I guess my biggest confusion here was and is in what exact market are you trying to stay away from totally and what markets are you really gearing this site and your show for? I think there in lies my confusion a bit. If that makes any sense. lol I think if you are after a college market or comedy clubs or theaters, then I think the brashness and jail time type of copy and attitude actually can work in your favor. In those markets, that type of a personna can carry over well and work well for you. But I feel if you were going for more of a corporate client then I feel that requires a different approach to the copy and what you say and how you say it? Does that make better sense? I am not sure if I am being as clear as I want to be. I guess what I am saying is that how you portray yourself and the copy in your website needs to be based upon your target market. If you go one direction, then what you say may have to be changed because it may be perceived wrong to that target prospect. However, if you are targeting markets like comedy clubs, colleges or theaters, then that can have a bit of a different brash feel to it and still work. It depends on the direct market you are seeking, then knowing the people in those markets and tailoring everything in that site to relate to them and their needs. You stated fading out of corporate work and hat makes more sense to me in regards to how this site is set up and how you get your message across. I feel the text and presentation of this would not work wel for the coporate market without it being tweaked. But since you are getting away from that market, it may make sense. can you define for me your key target markjets for this coming year and also what markets are you totally NOT intersted in doing at all? I think defining this for me in detail can help me get a really good idea for what you are trying to do and achieve and also allow me to better give advice to you and offer help if I can. I hope this is ok of me asking this of you. I do want to help and assist if I can. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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joshlondon17 Special user San Diego, CA 685 Posts |
Kyle,
We just had a connection (I mean that in a good-Christian way) haha! I am trying to not do any corporate work, but still have roughly 100-130 clients that book me every year and still (I feel) will book me. But, yes, I am focusing my marketing efforts on comedy clubs, college age people that go to theaters and a touring theater show. The market I want to get out of is: corporate. I'm sure that had to clear things up. I, too, would like your advice and others who have competent advice/comments. Thanks Kyle! jl |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-06-07 11:14, joshlondon17 wrote: Josh - Have you shown this site to people you don't know, and asked them their feedback? (Like the idea of a performer who takes a number of assorted business cards to the street, not identifying their own card, and asks for unbiased opinions about what various people like the best and why. This is different from asking friends and family if they like your new card.) Often times, performers can get so wrapped up in themselves, they don't look to others who will be honest with them. Sometimes friends and family can be too kind. Do you have a habit of listening to others you don't agree with, and considering their point of view? Have you ever made a change because they were right, and you were wrong? I have one friend who I trust to be encouraging, but also honest with me. I have made adjustments, even ones I was uncomfortable making, because of that friend's feedback. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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joshlondon17 Special user San Diego, CA 685 Posts |
Donald,
I actually just received an email fromand agent I've never met or spoke to before and he said to take out the jail time, put a full promo video on there, and add more testimonials/client lists. I am going to tone down the jail thing as my publicist says it's going to be a great story for clubs and drawing a crowd. I'm also going to add a testimonial and client page. Should I add a new sublink under Media for testimonials/clients and call it "Reviews?" Josh |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
For best results, I think testimonials should be everywhere. I also think they can be on their own page, but have that page available near the top of the list.
- Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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joshlondon17 Special user San Diego, CA 685 Posts |
Will do, thanks Donald.
Josh |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Don't forget to tell them where you are located. On your contact page, all you have is a phone number. At least give them an idea of what city you are in.
- Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
You are most welcome Josh. Now this starts to make a lot beter sense to me. It really does. With this knowledge and direction and shift away from a coporate market to a more college age crowd, it changes a lot in regards to how you convey things and how you let others perceive you as well.
With markets like comedy clubs, colleges, touring shows aimed at the college age crowd, then a brash and more "in your face" approach can certainly be done. In many ways I think part of it is expected to work for that age limit. The only question now that comes up is trying to make sure that the message gets conveed well in your site but is also written for the "decision maker" for each of these markets. I do not personally work these markets but I know others who have. For example Michael kent works mainly colleges and college crowds. My question now becomes how can you have an edgy feel to your site and content and make sure it works well to sell it to the decision maker who decides if you get hired or not. Is there now a difference between what a comedy club booking person wants to see and hear and that of the college campus entertainment director? if there ois a difference in what they both seek, then you may need to find a happy middle ground so that you know what you are putting out there will be taken the right way and be effective marketing as the prospect reads it. Thank you Josh for expanding on this. It makes more sense now that I know what you are trying to do, where you want to go and what you are leaving behind. Let me take a closer look at your site and content based on this new information and see if I can help you further. My pleasure. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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