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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2007-06-30 23:10, magicalaurie wrote: Gore may be correct about global warming, and he may not. He has been clearly disingenuous about the state of the global warming debate, however, in making statements to the effect that there is a unanimous scientific consensus, and anyone who disagrees with his position on global warming is either incompetent or has been bought off. He's been called out by many of the scientists who share his views on the overall picture, and on whose data he relied in An Convenient Truth. I don't think anyone "knows" for sure about global warming (and by "global warming," I mean not merely climate change, but the notion that we're causing it, it's horrible, etc.); however, there is a substantial group of reputable scientists who disagree with Gore's position. To the extent that Gore is proclaiming that there is no valid scientific debate, he is clearly being academically dishonest.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Unfortunately, the web is full of unqualified "information" on the global climate. Some of it has been referenced here.
Pour yourself a cup of coffee and browse http://www.ipcc.ch/index.html That is the website for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, operating under the auspices of the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) and the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP). "The role of the IPCC is to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the scientific, technical and socio-economic information relevant to understanding the scientific basis of risk of human-induced climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation. The IPCC does not carry out research nor does it monitor climate related data or other relevant parameters. It bases its assessment mainly on peer reviewed and published scientific/technical literature. Its role, organisation, participation and general procedures are laid down in the "Principles Governing IPCC Work" It isn't technical, but they don't spoon-feed you the "right answers" either. Take some time, do some thinking, then maybe we'll have more to talk about here. There are other good sources, I am sure. But they aren't bloggers and newspaper columnists. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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tnscot Loyal user 220 Posts |
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On 2007-06-30 19:18, Doug Higley wrote: Wow...Lies in politics....Who saw that coming? Good thing the other side is above all that. Now where did wee put those pesky WMDs that we found?
As Always,
Scot Legdermain |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
You mean the chemical and biological weapons that were used previously and casings that were found? I beleive the casings can be found in the security area they were placed in after being located.
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tnscot Loyal user 220 Posts |
You're right. The Bush administration hasn't lied, although their opponents have and my point that all politicians lie is completely invalid.
PS....OJ is still looking for the real killer.
As Always,
Scot Legdermain |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Thanks for the link to additional sources.
Much to look at and consider. Next week is the big rock music event for climate awareness. I hope this additional material helps allay my suspicions that we are being spoon fed
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Jonathan, there are many people offering spoon feeding. Some approach the mouth from the left and some from the right; all of them should be ignored.
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2007-07-01 16:38, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: Part of the problem concerning the way the debate is misrepresented is a bias as to which peer-reviewed studies get published. There are many complaints from reputable scientists whose work became a lot less in-demand when the Global Warming bandwagon took off and they weren't on it. Let me stress that the only thing I'm asserting here is this: Not all studies on the topic done by reputable scientists are reaching the same conclusion, despite what many (including Al Gore) would have you believe. That point has been raised not only by those disagreeing with Gore's main conclusions, but by those in agreement with him, and upon whom he partially relied in An Inconvenient Truth. Many of them agree with his conclusions, but NOT with his purported degree of certainty.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
"BEIJING (Reuters) - Global warming [COULD] wipe out large areas of glaciers in the Himalayas and surrounding highlands, threatening livelihoods across much of Asia, climate scientists said in Beijing on Monday."
"Could?" I thought, by a consensus, the disastrous consequences of manmade global warming was a sure thing? In science it either will or it won't, has or it hasn't. Guessing is for the lab, not a speculative news blurb for mass consumption.
POOF!
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DStachowiak Inner circle Baltimore, MD 2158 Posts |
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On 2007-07-02 08:38, kregg wrote: You're right of course. Let's wait and see. By the way, you only quoted the first paragraph of the article. The next three paragraphs go on to say: "Rising temperatures fueled by greenhouse gases from industry and agriculture have already shrunk glaciers on the mountains dividing China and South Asia, experts say. But one author of a benchmark U.N. report on climate change said more rapid melting could severely disrupt river flows and rainfall patterns across Asia. "If the rate of temperature rises does not change, glaciers on the Qinghai-Tibet plateau will rapidly shrink, perhaps from 500,000 square kilometers (193,100 sq miles) in 1995 to 100,000 square kilometers (38,600 sq miles) in 2030," Wu Shaohong of the Chinese Academy of Sciences told a news conference."
Woke up.
Fell out of bed. Dragged a comb across m' head. |
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MAKMagic Special user I got banned for one of my 555 Posts |
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On 2007-07-01 18:26, MagicSanta wrote: You mean these: "WASHINGTON — The United States has found 500 chemical weapons in Iraq since 2003, and more weapons of mass destruction are likely to be uncovered, two Republican lawmakers said Wednesday. "We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, chemical weapons," Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., said in a quickly called press conference late Wednesday afternoon. Reading from a declassified portion of a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center, a Defense Department intelligence unit, Santorum said: "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist." He added that the report warns about the hazards that the chemical weapons could still pose to coalition troops in Iraq. This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war." The official said the findings did raise questions about the years of weapons inspections that had not resulted in locating the fairly sizeable stash of chemical weapons. And he noted that it may say something about Hussein's intent and desire. The report does suggest that some of the weapons were likely put on the black market and may have been used outside Iraq. He also said that the Defense Department statement shortly after the March 2003 invasion saying that "we had all known weapons facilities secured," has proven itself to be untrue. "It turned out the whole country was an ammo dump," he said, adding that on more than one occasion, a conventional weapons site has been uncovered and chemical weapons have been discovered mixed within them. Hoekstra and Santorum lamented that Americans were given the impression after a 16-month search conducted by the Iraq Survey Group that the evidence of continuing research and development of weapons of mass destruction was insignificant. But the National Ground Intelligence Center took up where the ISG left off when it completed its report in November 2004, and in the process of collecting intelligence for the purpose of force protection for soldiers and sailors still on the ground in Iraq, has shown that the weapons inspections were incomplete, they and others have said. "We know it was there, in place, it just wasn't operative when inspectors got there after the war, but we know what the inspectors found from talking with the scientists in Iraq that it could have been cranked up immediately, and that's what Saddam had planned to do if the sanctions against Iraq had halted and they were certainly headed in that direction," said Fred Barnes, editor of The Weekly Standard and a FOX News contributor. "It is significant. Perhaps, the administration just, they think they weathered the debate over WMD being found there immediately and don't want to return to it again because things are otherwise going better for them, and then, I think, there's mindless resistance to releasing any classified documents from Iraq," Barnes said. The release of the declassified materials comes as the Senate debates Democratic proposals to create a timetable for U.S. troops to withdraw from Iraq. The debate has had the effect of creating disunity among Democrats, a majority of whom shrunk Wednesday from an amendment proposed by Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts to have troops to be completely withdrawn from Iraq by the middle of next year. At the same time, congressional Republicans have stayed highly united, rallying around a White House that has seen successes in the last couple weeks, first with the death of terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, then the completion of the formation of Iraq's Cabinet and then the announcement Tuesday that another key Al Qaeda in Iraq leader, "religious emir" Mansour Suleiman Mansour Khalifi al-Mashhadani, or Sheik Mansour, was also killed in a U.S. airstrike. Santorum pointed out that during Wednesday's debate, several Senate Democrats said that no weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq, a claim, he said, that the declassified document proves is untrue. "This is an incredibly — in my mind — significant finding. The idea that, as my colleagues have repeatedly said in this debate on the other side of the aisle, that there are no weapons of mass destruction, is in fact false," he said. As a result of this new information, under the aegis of his chairmanship, Hoekstra said he is going to ask for more reporting by the various intelligence agencies about weapons of mass destruction. "We are working on the declassification of the report. We are going to do a thorough search of what additional reports exist in the intelligence community. And we are going to put additional pressure on the Department of Defense and the folks in Iraq to more fully pursue a complete investigation of what existed in Iraq before the war," Hoekstra said. Don't forget the ones we watched go across the border into Cyria during our inspection.
.:Michael Kelley
On the Level, By the Square |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
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On 2007-07-01 23:41, LobowolfXXX wrote: Do you have any evidence of this "bias"? Who gets to decide that the panel of peers consistently makes the "wrong" decisions? Quote:
There are many complaints from reputable scientists whose work became a lot less in-demand when the Global Warming bandwagon took off and they weren't on it. Do you have evidence or hearsay? Quote:
Let me stress that the only thing I'm asserting here is this: Not all studies on the topic done by reputable scientists are reaching the same conclusion, despite what many (including Al Gore) would have you believe. That point has been raised not only by those disagreeing with Gore's main conclusions, but by those in agreement with him, and upon whom he partially relied in An Inconvenient Truth. Many of them agree with his conclusions, but NOT with his purported degree of certainty. Bring on reputable evidence. Have you ever read a peer-reviewed scientific journal? Everything that makes it into the journal is controversial; that is why it is published. Established results are not up for debate--you simply won't find a modern article arguing that, say, cholera is caused by a bacterium because everybody agrees to that. Contemporary articles about global warming raise issues about causes of temperature trends, about errors in temperature measurements, about mathematical models, and so on. That these articles get published is a sign that there are unanswered questions and that there is debate about them. To say that there is debate amongst scientists in a given field is to say no more than that science is being done. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
I went to the big DelMar Fair yesterday. It was really packed and the 15 hours of flat out fun went by very quickly. No concerns about all the crap going on in the world.
We even went to the El Coyote (Mexican Singer and Band) concert, we were the only Gringos in the whole huge granstands, hahaha...that were packed as well and we had a blast. Nobody gave a crap about warming or illegals or anything that I could see except through out the day enjoying Bull Riders, Free style Moto Cross and Monster Trucks and a great Hawaiian show. We ate EVERYTHING...went on cool rides, made some new friends, many who struggled with English but not as badly as I stomped thru meager Spanish...got sore feet and had the kind of day that I wish for everyone on this board. A day to completly FORGET the turmoil we are being subjected to and be ELOI.
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
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On 2007-07-02 10:34, DStachowiak wrote: One cannot dispute an observable occurrence. Remember, I don't disagree with cyclical warming and cooling; which can be seen in geological records. Yet, I do have a problem with climate modeling, projections, fortune tellers and consensus based conclusions. "... a press conference at Harwell in 1958 when Sir John Cockcroft, Britain’s top nuclear physicist, said he was 90% certain that his lads had achieved controlled nuclear fusion. It turned out that he was wrong. More positively, a 10% uncertainty in any theory is a wide open breach for any latterday Galileo or Einstein to storm through with a better idea. That is how science really works."
POOF!
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2007-07-02 11:26, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: And, since Global Warming articles, WHATEVER position they take, are still being published in scientific journals, then I assume you agree that when Al Gore says, "The scientific debate is over," he is being either intellectually dishonest or grossly inaccurate.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
Gore exaggerates, as do most people in the political / public arena.
He's far from being the worst offender on that count. To be fair, most of these people exaggerate as a means to emphasise a point.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
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On 2007-07-02 14:52, LobowolfXXX wrote: I haven't seen Gore's film, and I don't think his scientific opinion is worth the ink it gets. The distinction you and many others seem to miss is that some parts of the debate are over and, as always, the devil is in the details. To risk making things worse, let me compare your position with that of the advocates of "intelligent design". IDers take great pain to point out that there continue to be raging debates within the scientific community regarding evolution. This is true. What is not debated, however, is whether evolution explains the diversity of life on earth, or whether evolutionary theory explains a great deal of the history of life on earth. Those debates are long over. Similary, it appears that 1) the earth is warming an a rate greater than any seen in the historical record, and 2) human activity is a partial causal factor of this increased rate of change. Those questions appear to be pretty much resolved. Again, the devil is in the details. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
I am getting a big kick out of all the dancing around the word LIE. I'm from a different age I guess before my Dad 'Exagerated' to my Mom that he wasn't at the bar, he was at work. A lie is a lie. Catch a little fish and claim it was a big fish, you lied. Exageration is putting silk on it...these clowns count on that.
And SOME in this thread please READ the other posts before saying that Gore isn't the only liar or exageration machine. I said again and again they ALL lie. They are politicians, it is what they do. All of them. No party affiliations exempt. They lie to remain in power, to create power, to foster power, to control. Of course along the way they stumble on getting it right sometimes but it is rare unless you go back to the founders. Happy 4th of July. You elect these buggers at least see them for what they are and waving their name tags and election banners is no more than an emotional pre teen fawning over a rock star for the same reasons. Foolishness. 12% acceptance of Congress kind of lets me know I'm not completely alone...maybe more set in my thoughts about these so called public servants...mabe more jaded than most (having producd more than a few campaign commercials in the old days and seeing who they really were.) Frauds. So when it comes to ANY politician, there ain't no Santa Claus. Your milage may differ. Al Gore is no better or worse than any of them. Just sillier. I'm sure there may be an idealistic young politico somewhere...but that wil change oncwe he she gets deeper in the system. I just assume all boiling water will burn me. Difference is I respect Water no matter the temperature. I just find politiicans Comical.
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Doug - Politicians don't lie anymore! Nixon is dead, the seventies is over!
These days, they SPIN! They say things which are not true, they say things they KNOW are not true, they present false facts, the leave out important information, they redefine...but they NEVER lie. Clinton didn't LIE. He just created a new definition for sexual relations! |
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
Ah. As one being 'lied' to, I get to define the terms that will pass my BS filters...Lie is good to go.
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
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