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Kjellstrom Inner circle Sweden, Scandinavia, Europe 5109 Posts 
Some say the tricks in the book are not very good, but after showing "The Poupart Trick" in Martin Joyal's book I got a monster strong reaction. I did this for some very skeptical people but they looked like aliens after the effect. Always fun with "killer" card effects. The other card effects in Martin's book seem pretty good. I think there is almost certainly at least one effect that you will like in "The SixHour Memorized Deck" by Martin Joyal.


Mr. Bunkley New user 68 Posts 
Jello,
I fell into the Aronson stack and let me tell you that it's not THAT hard to memorize. In fact, I found it the perfect way to fall asleep. Instead of counting sheep (or any such cliche) I sincerely run through the stack in various forms and before you know it, not only are you sleeping better, but you've got a nice weapon to add to your magic arsenal. Nothin but the truth! My thoughts, Daniel dbull@austin.rr.com 

Kjellstrom Inner circle Sweden, Scandinavia, Europe 5109 Posts 
Is it possible to have two or more stacks memorized in your mind, or will they interfere with each other?


MacGyver Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1419 Posts 
Personally I have only used Si Stebbins in the past...
If I learn the Joyal Stack, are there benefits to learning more than one? If the spec thinks that you're memorizing the order, changing stacks won't help because both look random, IMHO. 

Kjellstrom Inner circle Sweden, Scandinavia, Europe 5109 Posts 
Dear Mr MacGyver:
Si Stebbins is not a memorized stack, it's a system with a mathemathical formula. Therefore you can't compare it with a memorized deck. It's a big difference. Si Stebbins' Stack is not examinable. You can directly see that the deck is in an order. Aronson's Stack has some builtin gambling effects. That's the difference. 

MacGyver Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1419 Posts 
True, but taking that view, Aronson and Joyal are not memorized either, because they both have rules. Joyal 14, if I remember correctly, and Aronson however many.
I agree it's a big difference, but it should still count as a stack. Other memorized stacks use "systems." The only true memorized stack is taking a randomly shuffled deck and memorizing it straight as it is. 

Kjellstrom Inner circle Sweden, Scandinavia, Europe 5109 Posts 
If you really have a memorized deck in your mind then you should know this:
Aronson and Joyal are memorized decks. You can recall any card's position directly from root memory. If that's not from memory, I don't know what you say. The rules you names are only for the learning process, not for use when you do effects. When the stack is in your root memory, you don't use the rules. They fade away. The cards pop up in your mind instantly  the cards are in your memory. If you use a system, you do some calculations in your mind and the cards are not coming directly from your memory. I think you should get Martin Joyal's book and read how it really works. 

Ian Richards Loyal user 224 Posts 
The difference between totally random memorized stacks such as Aronson, Joyal and Tamariz and cyclic stacks such as Si Stebbins and Three Kings is very clearly explained on Martin Joyal's website. The Aronson stack does not use any rules to establish the position or stack number of any card. You either know it or you don't!


ddyment Inner circle Gibsons, BC, Canada 2388 Posts 
There is some confusion here between two very different types of deck stacks, and the various techniques used to learn them.
I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read An Introduction to FullDeck Stacks, which expands considerably on several issues related to this subject. ... Doug
"Calculated Thoughts" is available at Vanishing Inc. and The Deceptionary :: Elegant, Literate, Contemporary Mentalism ... and More


Mikael Eriksson Inner circle None of your business 1064 Posts 
The Joyal stack uses "14 rules plus a smart learning tool". The important question for me is if I can use these without translating from English to Swedish. For example, 3 of diamonds (3D) can make certain words or associations in English, but 3 of diamonds is not the same in Swedish, it's R3, and can't make the same words or associations.
Mikael 

MacGyver Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1419 Posts 
Sorry for the misunderstanding!!!


Martin Joyal Regular user 135 Posts 
>>> Doug,
Thanks for the summary you just wrote on the memorized deck, as well as others you wrote in other threads on the same subject. This should clarify a lot of facts and questions frequently asked by magicians. You mentioned the stacks created by Gaucci and Wild. This brings me to the following point. The systems published by Jack Yates in 1978, by Boris Wild in 1996 (and later in 2001), and by Charles Gaucci in 2002 are the same. Without knowing it, Yates, Wild, and Gaucci reinvented a system published in Stanyon Magic, July 1913. Stanyon (or anyone else) doesn't claim credit for this stack. ______ >>> Mikael, The Joyal Stack is language independent. You won't have to translate it from English to Swedish. ______ Martin 

Kjellstrom Inner circle Sweden, Scandinavia, Europe 5109 Posts 
One more time; I taught myself this memorized stack in 3 nights (true) and my native language is Swedish. This stack works like a dream! Of course you never get anything for free you need to practise, a lot.
You never need any "toy" trick deck anymore. A memorized stack is almost all you need plus an ordinary deck of cards. Tip: using a marked deck (I use Boris Wild System) + Joyal Stack = Super Deck. 

Mikael Eriksson Inner circle None of your business 1064 Posts 
Quote:
On 20030213 23:47, Martin Joyal wrote: Fantastic! Thank you very much! Mikael 

ddyment Inner circle Gibsons, BC, Canada 2388 Posts 
I've updated my fairly lengthy commentary on memorized deck stacks, to include some additional information that a couple of people asked me about. Refer back to my February 13th posting in this topic if the subject interests you.
... Doug
"Calculated Thoughts" is available at Vanishing Inc. and The Deceptionary :: Elegant, Literate, Contemporary Mentalism ... and More


Martin Joyal Regular user 135 Posts 
>>> Doug,
Thanks for updating your February 13 post. I'm glad that the information I emailed you regarding the similitudes between the systems published by Stanyon, Yates, Wild and Gauci were of some help (although some credits would have been appreciated). I'm glad also that you liked the history of the origin of the Si Stebbins system, up to Horacio Galasso, that I supplied to you. For members who might be interested in the history of systems and memorized decks, please visit http://www.joyalstack.com/Pages/Mileston......ame.html For members who might be interested in the similitude between the stacks published by Stanyon, Yates, Wild and Gauci, what follows is a sumary of emails sent to Doug. Martin ========== The Stanyon System This is the system published by Ellis Stanyon in 1913 Three parameters are associated with each suit. The first parameter will be called DELTA. The second parameter will be called INCREMENT. The third parameter will be called SUIT. For Clubs: DELTA= 3, INCREMENT= 3, SUIT = 3. For Hearts: DELTA= 6, INCREMENT= 4, SUIT = 4. For Spades: DELTA= 10, INCREMENT= 5, SUIT = 1. For Diamonds: DELTA= 1, INCREMENT= 2, SUIT = 2. Knowing card A, to find the identity of card B which follows it, the formula are: VALUE of card B = VALUE of card A + INCREMENT of card A. SUIT of card B = SUIT of card A + 1 To find the stacknumber of any card, the formula is. STACKNUMBER= ((VALUE of card  DELTA) x 4) + (SUIT  1) To find the identity of a card knowing its StackNumber, the formula is: SUIT of card= (remainder of (STACKNUMBER / 4)) + 1 VALUE of card= (integer part of (STACKNUMBER / 4)) + DELTA All the calculations pertaining to values are modulo 13. All the calculations pertaining to suits are modulo 4. The Shuffle Index is 142.  Jack's Pack This is the system published by Jack Yates in 1978 Three parameters are associated with each suit. For Clubs: DELTA= 1, INCREMENT= 2, SUIT = 1. For Hearts: DELTA= 2, INCREMENT= 2, SUIT = 2. For Spades: DELTA= 4, INCREMENT= 2, SUIT = 3. For Diamonds: DELTA= 6, INCREMENT= 8, SUIT = 4. THE FORMULAS ARE THE SAME AS FOR THE STANYON SYSTEM. The Shuffle Index is 142.  The Wild System This is the system published by Boris Wild in 1996. Three parameters are associated with each suit. For Clubs: DELTA= 4, INCREMENT= 1, SUIT = 2. For Hearts: DELTA= 3, INCREMENT= 1, SUIT = 3. For Spades: DELTA= 2, INCREMENT= 1, SUIT = 4. For Diamonds: DELTA= 1, INCREMENT= 4, SUIT = 1. THE FORMULAS ARE THE SAME AS FOR THE STANYON SYSTEM. The Shuffle Index is 142.  The 15 Minutes No Mnemonic Memorized Card System This is the system published by Charles Gauci in 2002. Three parameters are associated with each suit. For Clubs: DELTA= 1, INCREMENT= 3, SUIT = 1. For Hearts: DELTA= 3, INCREMENT= 3, SUIT = 2. For Spades: DELTA= 6, INCREMENT= 3, SUIT = 3. For Diamonds: DELTA= 9, INCREMENT= 5, SUIT = 4. THE FORMULAS ARE THE SAME AS FOR THE STANYON SYSTEM. The Shuffle Index is 142.  Conclusion: The four above systems are the same! The main difference between the above four systems is their name. Anyone can change the parameters defining a stack built this way, and the formulas will always be the same. As for the Shuffle Index, it will always be 142 or higher. However, I do believe that Jack Yates, Boris Wild and Charles Gauci didn't know of each other's works when they "reinvented" the Stanyon System.  By the way, if one uses an INCREMENT of 4 for all four suits, you then have the system invented by Horacio Galasso in 1593. If one uses an INCREMENT of 3 for all four suits, you then have the system popularized by Si Stebbins in 1896. Knowing card A, to find the identity of card B which follows it, the formula is the same but can be simplified to: VALUE of card B = VALUE of card A + 3. SUIT of card B = SUIT of card A + 1 When the colors alternate, the Index Shuffle is also 142. ========== 

da5id Loyal user Dublin, Ireland 252 Posts 
Martin,
Thanks for presenting all your deeply researched information. I've have been learning your stack over the last week and I just wanted to say that your book is amazing. Your research and background on the subject is impeccable and it helps put your ideas in a context  you certainly know stacks!! I can't recommend your book highly enough! Thanks again. David 

Fabio P Special user Rome  ITALY 540 Posts 
I bought Joyal book and I want to confirm that it is a great book, very well written (chapeau, mon ami!!)
The only thing that I would like to clarify is that it seems that only Aronson and Rix allow the possibility to execute gambling demonstrations and "card at a number" rotines. Please tell me if I am wrong and what type of limit is it for Joyal excellent stack Fagani 

GetJet New user 23 Posts 
Can anyone clarify the difference between this stack and Docc's Lolita System? Which are the advantages or disadvantages and are they the same type of stack?
Thanks. 

Martin Joyal Regular user 135 Posts 
>>> David,
Thanks for yor nice comments. I'm glad you enjoyed my book. >>> Fagani Merci pour ces bons mots! Among others, the following memorized decks are suitable for gambling demonstrations: Nikola, Ireland, McCaffrey, Steele, Aronson and Rix. Any memorized deck is suitable for an "Any Card at Any Number" effect. There is also a good review available at http://www.onlinevisions.com/reviews/0310lolita.html _____ Martin 

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