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mike herbert New user mike herbert 53 Posts |
Hi
Is there anyone here who can point me in the direction of a video clip that shows the Zingone perfect table pass from Expert card technique, please, as I have a bit of a sticking point as to what this should really look like. Thanks |
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J Wessmiller Veteran user VA 306 Posts |
Hey Mike-
I couldn't remember the Zigone so I looked it up and recalled that I used to play with it a bit. Here's my shot at it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R864-_poGr0 I'm not a big fan of it because the break is held in front. The best way to hide it is to slap the packets on top of one another and to start moving the deck to the table edge as soon as possible. You could also move the right second finger farther to the left to cover the break, but the illustration shows the second finger closer to the middle. You may also want to check out the Open Shift in Expert at the Card Table- it's similar. be well, JW |
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mike herbert New user mike herbert 53 Posts |
Hi JW.
Thanks for the clip, that is about a far as I got with it (tho the slapping the packs together was a new one on me). Which shows that we were both reading from the same page of the book. However I am not convinced that this is quite the way that it would have looked when Zingone performed it. (based upon the hyped up description) I was under the impression that it looked like he was just placing the cards into his hands and dealing. Yet from the description of the moves it doesn’t quite work like that, I suspect that there is a little something else to do, such as a squaring action or something to hide the packets slipping past each other. My original reason for learning it was to try and modify it so that the cut card could be retained in position on the bottom, I figured that it would be one to start with, and I will persevere a little more with some tweaks. However I don’t think that it is a million miles away to alter Docs infinity pass to fulfil this purpose. I have looked at the open shift, and from some of the clips that I have seen it is as fast as Erdnase describes. I recall reading Darwin Ortiz commenting that the Zingone pass is a cruder version of one of the Erdnase shifts but I am unsure which one he was referring to at this time. I think I should heed your advise and check this out further. Once again thanks for your response and for sharing your clip Mike |
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papermechanic Regular user 121 Posts |
I think richard turner performs this on his cheat tape. and if I remember correctly he does it very well.
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J Wessmiller Veteran user VA 306 Posts |
I've been told that Martin Nash does this pass very well, but I haven't seen it myself. Ortiz must have been talking about the open shift, Erdnase even mentions performing the shift with the deck flat in the palm- almost exactly like the Zingone.
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J Wessmiller Veteran user VA 306 Posts |
After playing with the move a bit more, here's a better clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_eZolO0XUc be well, JW |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
This move will definitely get over in a real card game but it would make me think that something happened even if I couldn't explain what did and to me that's a no, no.
Just my opinion though. Jeff W. the Airfinity Pass is a combination of my pass and the pass that I saw you do on your video so in other words it's ours. Take Care Doc |
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rawdawg Special user Southern California 686 Posts |
I've always thought the Zingone would be better in a right to left motion as you completed the cut on the right and moved to deal to the left. I think, however, Erdnase's Open Shift has better mechanics.
That is a nice font you are using, Jeff.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-07-13 18:44, rawdawg wrote: Ok I'm going to talk out of my ass here because I don't do the pass nor have I looked at the write up in a while. First, I agree a little right to left motion is good. Isn't that they way it's described? The reason I ask is because as I recall the description says (and I've never seen anyone who demo'ed it do this) something about the right hand goes away after the pass and the left hand moves to the left and deals the top card with the left hand . To me this says the top card is thumbed off the deck. A one hand deal. I don't know if this is significant, if the move is better if this action is followed somehow, I'm not even sure if I remember that correctly. I'll have to look it up or maybe someone can help me here. Again, I don't know if this means anything, I just seem to remember something about the top card being dealt with the left hand. But I admit, I could be completely full of **** on that.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I am sorry but quite frankly it looks terrible to me.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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magician8 Veteran user 383 Posts |
Why use a pass that looks that bad when there are so many that look so good?
A.S.E |
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J Wessmiller Veteran user VA 306 Posts |
I would suggest looking into the Elevator pass as an alternative. This is what Turner does in "The Cheat" and if I remember correctly, Forte does it in GPS as well.
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mike herbert New user mike herbert 53 Posts |
Thanks everyone for your comments and thanks again Jeff for your second video clip, which I thought was better than the first. The reason that I was curious about this pass is that in “Expert Card Technique” the authors rave about the move and talk about how invisible it is when its performed by Zingone, so I figured that it would be a good one to learn.
As I said before I wanted to be able to modify it to retain the cut card on the bottom. Since I first posted Doc has shown a couple of moves which would fulfil the criteria that I was looking for. However Doc also says that he used one of the moves UNTILhe had learned to deal from the centre of the pack, then the passes were effectively obsolete. This has got me thinking about being more selective about the moves that I need to learn. I think that I need to requalify what I am trying to achieve. It seems that in reality if you want to cheat at any game you need to assess how it is played (gain a full understanding) and then find the weaknesses and invent, or draw upon, moves or strategies that will suffice. If you know blackjack well, for example, then just knowing the location of a card can give you an edge. Although there is something quite satisfying about learning moves as well. This whole thread has been quite a revelation to me, and has given me a new way of approaching the subject of advantage play and cheating techniques, in future I will try to find the direct route, the one of least resistance. |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts |
Mike I'm sorry to say but what you are doing is the only way to a direct route unless someone specifically teaches you. In our quest to become the best we start out learning inferior moves because we don't know exactly what we need to learn but as we go along life's highway we find out or invent better moves and only at this point in our life is where we realize what we did wrong and this is when we dismiss the old inferior moves in order to bring in the new better ones.
Learning how to cheat is like getting better technology...the smarter we get the better and smaller the technology. Likewise the smarter or more skilled we get in cheating, the less moves you have to do in order to get the money. A Good Example I invented my Infinity Pass and gave it to you here magicians. I said in a previous thread that I didn't need it; but that's no longer true and I was wrong. Why? Because of this new Texas Hold'em craze that's going around, there is only two ways to me to beat this game successfully if the deal walks (go from player to player) and that is to cull and stack on the fly and retain the deck with the cut card or cold deck the game. Why would you say that Doc when there are other ways? I don't like the odds of having 2 Aces or 2 Kings from the beginning and not knowing what the flop, the turn and the river card is going to be. I seen a guy about a week ago have 2 kings put in all of his money against another guy's 2 queens only to lose because the river card turned out a queen making him 3 queens over 2 jacks; that was luck. So after much study and analyzing various ways of beating that game, Jeff Wessmiller's way of beating that game (running up the hands) to me is the best. (Note 1: It is Jeff Wessmiller who taught me how to beat the Texas Hold'em game; yes Jeff was my teacher in this particular area. Thank you Jeff. Note 2: I taught Jeff a better-looking run-up system of which we will not talk about). Bottom Line: Even though Sal's Poker Cheat video is excellent and all that showing how hands are gotten together and what to look for in the flop etc... Jeff Wessmiller's 2nd DVD is the answer to winning at Texas Hold'em. Back To Why I Was Wrong By combining Jeff’s run-up system with my Greek Deal Infinity Pass you now have the completion to a technique that will get you some money. One More Bottom Line: If you haven't already purchased Jeff's' 2nd DVD, buy it if you're a cheat because it will definitely pay for itself many times over you won't regret it. Mike no one has all the answers....I guess I have to take back my Infinity Pass because I need it now….haha. Take Care Respectfully, Doc |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
You always have to wonder about the older moves when the guy who invented it, or was the master of it, is gone and there is no way to see the move in their hands. Was this pass really indetectable in the hands of Zingone? Or was that a lot of bluff and bluster like we see in a lot of magic books and videos? I guess we'll never know, which is a shame. I'd like to have seen the man do it and see if it was really indetectable, or if it was hyped up slightly.
But you never know for sure. I guess that's why we have to play with different moves and decide for ourselves if they are worthwhile. It dosen't really matter if the thing was invisible in the originators hands. If we can't work out the details and make it look good in our hands, it's no use to us.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
Hello Mike,
There is one technical issue that might bear closer scrutiny. It is my contention that the center deal is, by and large a great tool for demonstrating a false deal in a gambling demonstration. However, its use at the gaming tables is limited probably to the point of extinction. Even Vernon's search for the center deal met with scepticism from the mechanics and hustlers he approached. There are a number of real problems with its employment. I will give two of the main difficulties. Firstly,what happens if the guy cutting the cards cuts deep leaving the center dealer with 10 or 12 cards above the slug which run out before the deal is complete? Secondly, there is the 'no small matter' of holding a break or brief during the deal in such a way as the deck looks natural and does not gape or develop a seam or ledge at anytime especially during the center deal itself. Bottom dealers do not have these kind of issues to cope with and can deal out some very hard hitting hands as a result. However, they obviously need some kind of method for beating the cut and overcoming the cut card. There was an article a while ago possibly in Genii called 'Guius the master mechanic' or some such title. He was in the hustling business making gaffs and so forth for many years and he never came upon a hustler specialising in the center deal. This is not to say it does not happen but it clearly is a difficult and uncertain method when compared to other possibly less risky and more practical strategies. I hope this provides further food for thought. Maybe, the Zingone has a role to play after all. Regards, Paul H |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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rawdawg Special user Southern California 686 Posts |
That's the Sub-rosa Stack, Tommy.
I'd personally view some of the items in "Expert Card Technique" with a grain of salt.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Vandy makes a good point on anther thread about the cards being cut by the player to the right. This Zingone perfect table pass in my opinon should done with the left arm right over on the right and the back of left hand giving cover as you pick up the deck and done as the hands are moving back with it to the position where the deck is back in front of you. Wess is tring to do it square on and gets no shade that way perhaps. Anyway I don't why you don't just get a pal on your right to cut to a jog that's what I would do.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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J Wessmiller Veteran user VA 306 Posts |
My discovery when I stopped playing with it (I'd never dream of actually using it) was that the move is a waste of time. I didn't expect this thread to get this much attention- I was just throwing up a video to show mike the general idea, which as it turns out, he already knew.
I know the move isn't good, and I don't claim to do it particularly well either. We might as well be discussing the Jordan memory system (anyone get that joke?) be well, JW |
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