The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Is it ok for a Christian to hate Gospel Magic? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
JohnWells
View Profile
Inner circle
The Southern Wild
1791 Posts

Profile of JohnWells
Here we go. I hate, despise, detest, repudiate, and in any other terms you might be able to devise, including profanity in as many as six languages (eight if you count Hebrew and Greek), dislike Gospel magic. Magic seems to fall into a common evangelical trap, that of mediocrity. There is a prevailing notion in the churches that doing something for Jesus means you don't have to do it well, just sincerely. This observation comes from years of ministry. I have never seen a competent gospel magician (admitting that I have seen none of the Café members perform, you all may be the exception, though I am generally suspicious of any group that would have myself as a member), nor have I ever seen a gospel routine that did not water down the glorious Gospel of Christ. Am I missing something?
Terry Owens
View Profile
Inner circle
Ft. Wayne, Indiana
1707 Posts

Profile of Terry Owens
Oh yes you're missing something...,you have not looked deep enough and far enough. There is a host of men who are excellent performers as well as Gospel artist. This young man is currently on tour http://www.jarrodmac.net/home.htm you have people like Toby Travis, Duane Laflin, and more...(there is a whole list found in this forum and those listed I think would greatly disagree that they are not competent)

Personally, I have had over 50 people saved last month through my ministry which features "gospel magic". I have spots that air on a national/international television network that goes into 170 countries with the smallest audience viewing audience at any one time is 5,000,000 people...another major television network informed me yesterday that they are going to run my spots. They don't have to run the spots but they choose to because of the quality of them and the content of them.

Just like there are magicians that shouldn't perform in public, there are people who do it in church...I've met a few people who thought they could sing, but couldn't but they go ahead and do it in church.

And if you're a member of FCM, it's not based on your ability as a performer, it's based on the fact that you're a Christian who enjoys doing magic and wants to fellowship with other believers who enjoy the art. Some professionals, some beginners, but we love the Lord and enjoy performing.
Ron Reid
View Profile
Inner circle
Phoenix, Arizona
2733 Posts

Profile of Ron Reid
Hi John:

Yes, I think I agree with much of what Terry just said. I have seen Andre Kole present the Gospel of Jesus Christ, using magic. It was at a public performance - probably with many non-believers in the audience. The effect he performed was well done and very magical, but more importantly, demonstrated what happens when a person accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and then He comes into them to be their Life. The Lord worked thru Andre in a miraculous way.

I have also seen Duane Laflin present the Gospel very well. He is always professional and respectable when performing.

So, in answer to your question, I don't think I'd spend too much energy or time dwelling on it. If the Lord hasn't led you to embrace Gospel magic, maybe it's best to just leave it there.

Ron
Steve Varro
View Profile
Regular user
Nashville TN.
116 Posts

Profile of Steve Varro
John:

Sometimes it's easy to judge an entire art form based on our having seen one or two bad performances.

I'm sorry your introduction to Gospel Magic was not a positive experience. I have seen many bad clowns, ventriloquists, finger flingers illusionists and yes, Gospel magicians. That does not mean that all those who use these art forms are to be critisized, judged and disliked. When you have the opportunity to see a professionally done Gospel Magic program, you'll have a renewed appreciation for it as an art form and a communication tool. Come to the FCM convention July 16 to 20, I am sure you'll enjoy it.

Steve Varro
Immed. Past President / FCM
STILL In HIS service

Steve Varro

International President of FCM

Owner/Dock Haley Gospel Magic Co.
Payne
View Profile
Inner circle
Seattle
4572 Posts

Profile of Payne
Gospel magic is no different than any of the other sub genres of magic. Most of it is bad and presented by hacks and wannabes. Sure there are a handful of quality gospel, bizarre, children's, mentalist, ect. performers out there but they are far out numbered by the outright unwatchable.
Granted the only gospel magic I have really been exposed to was reading the Gospel column in the old TOPS magazine and if this was any indicator of the quality of the material presented by your average gospel performer I'd have to agree with the first poster in that most gospel magic appears to be pretty lame.
I've never seen Mr, Kole perform and most likely never will as I don't hear about his performances in my area until long after he's gone. But I'll wager he's a fine performer. I've seen Laughlin present his non-gospel act, and though not to my taste it was well executed and I'm sure quite commercial. However I'm sure the fine work of these two performers is eclipsed by the "Uncle Wally" types who foist badly thought out magic and routines on captive audiences trapped in Sunday Schools. In much the same way I'm sure that countless thousands of other children are forever emotionally scarred by having bad magic inflicted upon them by hack performers in their Day Cares.
Bad magic is all around us and not just limited to the Gospel sect of the trade.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
tbaer
View Profile
Inner circle
Pennsylvania
1919 Posts

Profile of tbaer
Quote:
On 2007-07-07 07:59, tmowens wrote:

Personally, I have had over 50 people saved last month through my ministry which features "gospel magic".


Terry, that's wonderful, praise the Lord. Keep on keepin on.

Quote:
On 2007-07-07 09:29, Ron Reid wrote:
If the Lord hasn't led you to embrace Gospel magic, maybe it's best to just leave it there.



Ron, I agree 100 percent. If you don't feel led in your heart do so, then don't do it. The Lord will definitely give you a peace about it, if He wants you to do it.
Steve Varro
View Profile
Regular user
Nashville TN.
116 Posts

Profile of Steve Varro
Payne:

I agree with you when you sat "Bad magic is all around us, and not just limited to the Gospel Sect of the trade" When we attend a magic convention such as IBM or SAM we expect to see a quality of professionalism that is far above what we see at our local club meetings, which is far about what Uncle Wally does at our family gatherings.

If we were to judge magic in general by what we see "Uncle Wally" do we would most likely have a very poor opinion of the art of magic. This is true of all types of magic. Birthday party magic, Banquet magic, illusions, close-up and Gospel Magic.

Most magicians see other magicians perform, on TV, at Conventions or at Club Meetings. Gospel magicians see other gospel magicians perform at conventions such as the FCM and at their local FCM meetings. Unfortunately the vast majority of magicians are not Gospel performers and never attend the FCM conventions to see the likes of Duane Laflin (Laughlin by the way is a city in Southern Nevada, Laflin is a world renown performer). The only exposure they may have is from the local children's performer who is unfortunately like most magicians.... unskilled in the art of showmanship and presentation. The difference with performers like Duane is the emphasis on delivery (showmanship and presentation). Too many magicians only want to learn another dozen tricks. Like we all need more magic in our closets. (And coming from a manufacturer of Gospel Magic that last line was hard to write!)

Steve Varro
Past President FCM
Owner Dock Haley Gospel Magic Co.
STILL In HIS service

Steve Varro

International President of FCM

Owner/Dock Haley Gospel Magic Co.
JohnWells
View Profile
Inner circle
The Southern Wild
1791 Posts

Profile of JohnWells
I find it interesting that no poster has mentioned the statement above that is, to my mind, the most significant, namely that I have never seen a gospel effect that did not water down the Gospel. Any thoughts?
Terry Owens
View Profile
Inner circle
Ft. Wayne, Indiana
1707 Posts

Profile of Terry Owens
From your post John, it appears you've not seen too much or been exposed to too many Gospel Illusionist.

I do not water down my presentations, but I share it based on age appropriateness. One of my routines uses a whip and nail to present what happened to Christ. The other thing you have to take into account, what is their denominational background...I'm Pentecostal through and through and we have tremendous services, people being healed, filled with the Holy Spirit and saved.

Other people that I have been exposed to do not water down the message either, so I would encourage you to search some sites and broaden your exposure to Gospel Illusionist.

Take care and be blessed!
Terry
Steve Varro
View Profile
Regular user
Nashville TN.
116 Posts

Profile of Steve Varro
John:

Sorry I missed that line in your original post.

I close my act with Gene Anderson's Torn & Restored Newspaper. The message as I am ripping the paper, is that there are things that happen that make us feel as though our lives are in pieces. I go on to get more specific by talking about such things as death, or divorce and even things like a D on your report card. I conclude by talking about the fact that while we are not able to put the pieces of our life back together again, not by ourselves, there is some one who can, and that someone is Jesus Christ. If you take the pieces of your life and offer them up to Him, Jesus, according to His will, will to take the pieces of your life and put them back together again.

At this point the paper is restored.

In over 35 years of performing in over 25 countries of the world I have found nothing that better illustrated the restorative power of Jesus Christ.

Does this water down the Gospel. I hope not, but then can we as humans do anything to surpass the Gospel? I think not, but as Gospel performers we should do our best to illustrate it.

I have always said that in Gospel Magic it is important not to allow the effect to become more important than the message

You should never have to bend or manipulate the Gospel to fit the magic, instead choose the effect that will best uplift the Gospel message.

I hope that helps a little

In HIS service,
Steve Varro
Christisan Illusionist
STILL In HIS service

Steve Varro

International President of FCM

Owner/Dock Haley Gospel Magic Co.
Terry Owens
View Profile
Inner circle
Ft. Wayne, Indiana
1707 Posts

Profile of Terry Owens
Some great insight Steve...
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1768 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
Quote:
On 2007-07-07 16:03, Payne wrote:
I've never seen Mr, Kole perform and most likely never will as I don't hear about his performances in my area until long after he's gone. But I'll wager he's a fine performer.


Hi Payne:

Here's your chance! Plans are for Andre' to be in Renton, WA, on Friday, November 9, 2007, just about 20 minutes or so from Seattle.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Payne
View Profile
Inner circle
Seattle
4572 Posts

Profile of Payne
Quote:
On 2007-07-07 22:01, Terry Holley wrote:

Hi Payne:

Here's your chance! Plans are for Andre' to be in Renton, WA, on Friday, November 9, 2007, just about 20 minutes or so from Seattle.

Terry


Thanks for the heads up I'll put it on my calender. Do you know where abouts in Renton? Hopefully it will be at their performing arts center as that's a real nice facility and not a bad seat in the house.

I might even stay for the gospel part of the program Smile
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
PutASpellOnMe
View Profile
New user
OK
27 Posts

Profile of PutASpellOnMe
As a Christian myself, I find it hard to use the word "Hate" about anything.

As said previously, if you feel that strongly against it, don't do it, don't watch it, etc.

God uses each of us either through a talent or through lifes trials and tribulations to witness to others so that they may be saved! If you go your whole life and only influence ONE person into the kingdome of God, that is one less soul that will spend eternity in the pit!

Chrisitans - Making a Difference towards good in the # of people who will spend eternity in Hell!
"A friend is a present you give yourself"
Image
JohnWells
View Profile
Inner circle
The Southern Wild
1791 Posts

Profile of JohnWells
God used the word "hate".
Steven Conner
View Profile
Inner circle
2431 Posts

Profile of Steven Conner
Hey Fellows:

I think one thing is missing here. Its not about how good or bad a person is to begin with. If God is using your talent however little it may be, His message will be delivered in the manner He wants. We can't Save anyone. A person can only be saved if he is drawn by the Holy Spirit. So, God can take the worse effect or the best effect and use it for his glory. After all, its about Him not us.

Steve
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
rossmacrae
View Profile
Inner circle
Arlington, Virginia
2417 Posts

Profile of rossmacrae
Quote:
On 2007-07-07 18:47, JohnWells wrote:
I find it interesting that no poster has mentioned the statement above that is, to my mind, the most significant, namely that I have never seen a gospel effect that did not water down the Gospel. Any thoughts?

The quote above may be the most significant comment yet posted in this forum.

Here's how gospel magicians might completely avoid the charge (usually a well-founded charge) of using ill-suited effects to hammer home a message that could have been delivered much more clearly and intelligently without the magic.

When considering whether this or that effect is adaptable to a gospel-magic presentation, or whether this or that religious principle is adaptable to a magical presentation, ask yourself this: DOES THIS IDEA NEED MAGIC TO GET IT ACROSS?

Gospel magi tend to get carried away with the magic, I think, and you can see them all over this topic of the Café looking for advice on how to use such-and-such effect, or adapt such-and-such message to magic - the best advice I can offer is to stick to the simple message that most needs to be illustrated, which just happens to be the message that works best when vividly and simply illustrated.

IMO, 99% of the elements of faith just seem embarrassingly lame when dumb tricks are used to illustrate them (Magician: "Because Jesus is truly ... [ta-DAAAA!] the King of Hearts!" Big bow, meager applause ... please, if this keeps up I'm gonna need a drink.)

Please remember that 100% of the faith did quite well without prestidigitation (and clowns and folk music, while we're on the subject) for over 1900 of the preceding 2000+ years. (Magi: "Jo-jo the monkey puppet will help me give a magical Bible answer to those nasty scientists..." [I'm definitely gonna need that drink.])

So what DOES work well illustrated by magic? Look, it's called "gospel magic" ... what's the gospel, what's 'the good news'? John 3:16, plain and simple. Get back to that, and get over yourself!

Remember that little tract that illustrated the chasm sin puts between God and man, and the way Jesus bridges the chasm? It's been around quite a while, because it's a simple illustration of the 'good news'. It works. I think you'd find it hard to find anyone who objects to it on the grounds of 'oversimplification,' or 'forcing the message into an ill-suited medium,' or 'treats the reader like an idiot.' Likewise, the 'magic' part of gospel magic inevitably simplifies any message, because the effect carries its message in such very broad strokes - so why not stick to messages that are improved, not diminished, by being painted in broad strokes?

Get away from the simple 'good news' and you head right down that slippery (and short) slope to the kind of gospel magic that invites ridicule.
Steve Varro
View Profile
Regular user
Nashville TN.
116 Posts

Profile of Steve Varro
Ross:

Look up a few posts and you'll see that I did address the quote you posted.

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you are saying in your post. I apologize if I misunderstood you.

Are you saying that the use of Gospel Magic is not necessary in the sharing of the Word of God?

If that is what you are saying, I would have to agree.

But in saying that we would also have to agree that magic is unnecessary in the sharing of an anti drug message, or a safety message, or an Anti-Bully message, or the Reading is Fun message at a library show, or ..... and the list could go on and on and on.

Magic is unnecessary in any and all of these areas. But on the other hand, the use of visual aids, such as magic, (When properly used) can enhance the learning and retention of the items taught. We remember 10% of what we hear, and 50% of what we see. This is an increase of 500% just by adding the visual!

Necessary? No... Useful Yes.

There are a lot of poor magicians (and I'm not talking about money) in Gospel Magic, card magic, kid show magic, and so on. But just because there are, we would be wise not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

When using magic to teach a lesson (Gospel or otherwise) we need to remember that the message is what is most important. Make your magic relevant to the lesson. Don't try to force it to fit where the fit is not natural.

If you're doing a Birthday party show or a banquet program, the most important thing. is the entertainment value of your program. In message magic it's the lessen value. That doesn't mean your program can not or should not be entertaining. It should be and it can be.

Don't try to make the magic fit, just so you can have an opportunity to show the world what a "Great" magical talent you are. It that's your reason for doing Gospel magic, please go do something else. The message of Gospel Magic is the most important message Christians have to share. Your method of sharing it should be of the highest level possible.

P.S. As for as Jesus being the King of Hearts. To me He is the King of My Heart. As a Christian I am sure many others here can understand that concept. My heart and prayers are with anyone who does not understand that level of love and respect for Jesus.
STILL In HIS service

Steve Varro

International President of FCM

Owner/Dock Haley Gospel Magic Co.
Terry Owens
View Profile
Inner circle
Ft. Wayne, Indiana
1707 Posts

Profile of Terry Owens
I agree with Steve...and I come from the perspective of being an actual pastor. Before going back to pastoring, I have had the pleasure of being out there on the forefront of Children's Evangelism, (not to brag, but to make a point), I was on the road fulltime for 8 years solid with my program that featured magic. I saw child evangelism go from a summer time event to a January to December event, and my program was based on using magic to illustrate my messages. The proof is in the pudding and countless number of people have come to Christ through our ministry.

I didn't start off as a Christian Illusionist, I didn't even know there was such a thing. I was performing on a regular basis for companies, organizations and university as well as lecturing. But God opened the door for me to use my talents for His Kingdom, and I'm so glad He did. During one of my crusades a 12 yr old girl came and gave her heart to the Lord. A couple of weeks later she was killed while riding her bicycle. Her mother saw me a few months later and said that she was so glad that her little girl had gotten saved at our crusade.

Gospel magic isn't the only way to share the gospel, but in the hands of men who are called, it is an effective means of communicating the Gospel.
rossmacrae
View Profile
Inner circle
Arlington, Virginia
2417 Posts

Profile of rossmacrae
Quote:
On 2007-07-09 14:01, Steve Varro wrote:
As for as Jesus being the King of Hearts. To me He is the King of My Heart. As a Christian I am sure many others here can understand that concept. My heart and prayers are with anyone who does not understand that level of love and respect for Jesus.

I didn't say he wasn't. I'm saying that it's a fairly lame thing to waste 3 or 4 minutes on - it takes 3 words to say, and a couple dozen flashy moves to show with magic ... it,s much more about the magic than the message, and that's what makes a lot of gospel magic lame.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Is it ok for a Christian to hate Gospel Magic? (0 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.32 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL