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Andy the cardician
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I got very curious after reading this post and surved around the internet. Guess what - it is all out there. Especially the e-books and DVDs.

For me it is clear now - I will never publish an e-book.

Andy
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Scott F. Guinn
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OK in theory. However, the books in question that I mentioned above as being stolen and available on the bit torrent site WERE NEVER RELEASED AS EBOOKS! They were hard copy books. The guy just scanned them. At least if he's stealing my ebooks, I don't have all the money invested in them that I do in hard copies.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
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BlackShadow
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The thing is, a lot of these bit torrent kiddies are no real threat. They just collect magic for the sake of collecting it. They've no intention of performing it, practicing it, or even reading it. I was on a webpage recently where some unfortunate loser proudly detailed the magic he had obtained from illegal downloads. It ran into about 20 pages of pdfs, dvds etc. Thousands of items. Just a handful of those works would represent a lifetime of learning to perform it properly. He and many like him wont even be looking at the stuff they download. The fun for them is in the collecting, just like someone may collect football stickers.

Since they've no intention of performing, and are not the types who would have bought it anyway, they probably pose less threat than many think. I'm not saying that the process is right. Clearly it isn't, but it's not as much of a threat to markets, exposure, or genuine sales as may be imagined.
Andy the cardician
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Quote:
On 2007-07-28 14:00, Scott F. Guinn wrote:
OK in theory. However, the books in question that I mentioned above as being stolen and available on the bit torrent site WERE NEVER RELEASED AS EBOOKS! They were hard copy books. The guy just scanned them. At least if he's stealing my ebooks, I don't have all the money invested in them that I do in hard copies.


I noticed that too . . but it takes much more effort to scan a book. You must be really dedicated to do something. I guess, it was the byproduct of a number of kids buying one copy for them all. But luckily this is not the norm . . at least I hope so.
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NYCJoePitt
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Quote:
On 2007-07-08 02:52, Guardian452 wrote:
<snip>

So is it "unethical" to still watch the things on the CDS???


On the other hand, here is a perfect opportunity to educate somebody young who is asking a very reasonable question.

So Guardian, as you have probably gathered by now, the "right" thing to do is not to watch these CDS. If you already watched them and you liked something that you saw and want to perform, you should save your money and buy the CD/DVDs from a reputable magic store. You should throw away the CDS your friend gave you and tell him that you don't want any more from him.

As we go through life some times we are offered things that come easily. Unfortunately, the easy way is not always the best way. This is just one of those times. And Guardian, it doesn't have to be your job to set your friend "straight" about this topic. You just don't have to take any more CDs from him. Or if you do, just throw them away.

Anyway, that is my $.02.
The Amazing Noobini
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I think the right or wrong question is somewhat irrelevant. The times have changed and this is what we currently have. If you took all the bad sides of this technology and weighed it against all the good sides of it, I think it is pretty clear which would win.

Everybody want something for free if they have the chance. This is humnan nature and I'd like to see one person who claim that they'd never taped a movie off the tv or xeroxed an article from a magazine.

As Guardian452 shows us, many people still have a concience. This tends to emerge as one gets older. And what happens then? The kids who now have money they actually want to spend on items go with the names they have found to be their favorites. Nobody is going to take six months of allowance to buy Green Magic vol 1-6 just to see what it is. Besides it would be embarrassing running into the source of a move and then having to try to remember if you got it from a pirate site or if you bought it.

One of the reasons why the new consumer greedily grabs the option to try before you buy is that the majority of the companies offering the products lie. They hype up and advertize the most useless product in order to scam people into buying it. People won't go along with that when they don't have to.

When I was first subjected to someone taking my photographs and converting them by hand into detailed pencil drawings and then putting them up as their work, I was furious. Later I learnt that this was perfect for having an image travel and become more known. Nobody stabbed me in the back. A mashup is a tribute.

As long as nobody sells it and makes money off of your work, then I think it is acceptable. Filesharing kids actually diminish the market for pirated things for sale. And I don't believe for a second that sales plummit like the record companies claim to justify suing the parents of teenagers for thousands of dollars.

Good or bad, this is what the world is like. Period. If you didn't want the technique to become widely known outside of an "inner circle" then you wouldn't have launched it on DVD and marketed it aggressively.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Ed Mauve
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I agreed with The Amazing Noobini.

Most people, in fact so many people quote they all dislike ebooks. So other than the convenience to bring around, nobody wants to read much less to learn from ebooks. Why are there still circulation of illegal copies of pdf?

Without the convenience of todays' technology, I believe there wouldn't even be that many books/dvds/props/ideas to share and singular(nameless) people getting famous in short period of time and coming out few pages material to sell high. Getting great reviews and recommendation from so many professionals' help. I'm sure any news will take months if not years to reach another continent then.

Another way to make scanning tedious can also be publishing thicker books perhaps?
There's no perfect balance, if you're able to sell it worldwide, that makes your name well known, and already that is most important aspect for a performer, don't you think so?
Look at the bright side don't dwell too much on BT, it's pointless. There may still individuals who may not know BT but after reading this, it'll be, oh.. so I can download free from BT now, whats the point? Youtube..? I don't even know there's exposure till they post here in Magic Café, so who's spreading the news anyway, us or them? We discussed as in human nature, but think again, an't we also accomplice in helping the wildfire spread wider and to more areas? So who do we blame anyway, the 1st that builds computer or the 1st that launch WWW.? Smile

-my 2 cents.
The Amazing Noobini
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I should perhaps add the most important thing:

Just because something "is on the internet" doesn't mean that a billion people have/will/can download it.

I'm sure if some of you were to look at some web statistic for the BitTorrent files of yours that you have found online, you would see that maybe 3-12 people have downloded the material. Of those I would guess that a couple will buy the material in question if they were to use it. Or if they simply think it's any good. The rest are mostly people who don't want it bad enough to have paid for it in any case.

Furthermore, most BitTorrent files have a very short period of freshness after which they cannot be downloaded even if the page or Google still shows the file as being available. It is basically a news based filesharing system. Nobody reads last weeks papers.

Also, the majority of pirated magic material online seems to be from Ellusionist or Penguin Magic, the very ones who target the kids with their advertizing. As far as the majority of magicians here go... Although there are many brilliant talented people here, you just aren't as hip with the kids as Eminem. Which is of course another symptom of how twisted the world we live in is. But nevertheless a fact.

Basically, the problem of lost income is non existent. Relax.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Andy the cardician
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I do think that there is an issue of lost income - just look at the music industry.
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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2007-08-02 04:10, Andy the cardician wrote:
I do think that there is an issue of lost income - just look at the music industry.


The artists make their money from cd sales? Or from performances and endorsements?

What specifically would you have us consider?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Scott F. Guinn
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Quote:
On 2007-07-31 06:22, The Amazing Noobini wrote:
I think the right or wrong question is somewhat irrelevant. If you took all the bad sides of this technology and weighed it against all the good sides of it, I think it is pretty clear which would win.


Am I the only person who sees a glaring contradiction in these two statements from the same paragraph this post?
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
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The Amazing Noobini
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Hehe. Yes, you are right that was contradictory. Forgive me, English isn't my regular language.

They are separate arguments that somehow ended up together. I'm sure you are able to figure out what I was trying to say if you are really interested in doing so.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Andy the cardician
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Quote:
On 2007-08-02 09:24, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-08-02 04:10, Andy the cardician wrote:
I do think that there is an issue of lost income - just look at the music industry.


The artists make their money from cd sales? Or from performances and endorsements?

What specifically would you have us consider?


I mean the fact that sales are constantly declining, despite the fact that people are listening to even more music.

The additional income of artists for performing and endorsements is untouched . . good point.
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The Amazing Noobini
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I think the music or film industry and the magic book or DVD industry are very unsuited for comparison. That would be like comparing the Nestlé group to a local corner shop.

For every five copies of a magic PDF book which is illegally downloaded, I would think there are fifty that have their content at least partially copied the old fashioned way, by Xeroxing or lending. The sale of second hand material here is as big a cause for lost income as pirating. But nobody cares about that because it isn't a new phenomena. It is accepted and therefore a non issue. It doesn't have that air of mysterious scary new developement.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
Andy the cardician
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I agree that this is a different scale, but the impact remains the same - namely less sales. In that sense I do see a comparison.

The lending and copying you have mentioned was always around - including in the music industry. Technology, however made it much easier, affordable scanners and CD/DVD burners paved the way.

Another impact is the net - and here is the real problem. In the past, you could only pass copies to your friends - and they to theirs and so on. It is more or less a two dimentional spread.

Now however, you can create a multidimensional spread. Nuch faster and wider.
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Dr Desmond Jones
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I like the copy of a car thing. But now lets take a custom chopper and rip it off. Some ones heart and soul went into that. that's shady!

The fact we are even having a debate on ethics of stealing is "F"ed up big time. It's theft. You know you are doing it: And I think you are a very low life person (I cant say what Id like to here). May you strain your eyes reading bootlegged books and endure a death of millions of paper cuts from bootlegged printed books. And may your printers run out of ink extremely quickly!
"You Lady, you call him Dr. Jones, --Short Round!"
Banester
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For those that feel the artist is not doing anything must realize that a lot of those bit torrent's (newsgroups) are from hackers. You are most likely not going to be able to block them and good luck trying to actually find them.

I am surprised magic is on there. Most of it is usally music, movies and computer software. Honestly I am surprised the music industry has not gone after them yet.

Not sure on how all the legallity works, but the item is usually chopped into many segments and you would need to combine all of the segments (not just a few) in order to view/hear/read it. That might be how they work around the copyrights, not sure maybe Johanthon can add some to that?

While the hackers would be hard to track the servers where the information is stored wouldn't be. For those of you with published works you might want to try and find the host server and contact them, I would think they would not want to be involved with any legal matters.
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If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives
become filled with joy
-Doug Henning-
Justin N. Miller
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I JUST found out about torrent sites last night and to my horrible surprise ALL of my dvds and lecture notes are up! I am not happy at all about this. AND,one of the guys who put it up bauerdude is the same guy who started a thread about me and me not getting back to him. He is buying my stuff and then putting it up on these sites...makes me sick and my family is pretty ticked off as well (wife and 2 kids) STAY CLEAR OF BAUERDUDE...he is now made!



Justin N. Miller
Andy the cardician
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Justin, I feel for you. I am afraid that there is nothing we can do against people using the net to share. Even the strong music and movie industry is rather helpless . . .

Banaster, you are wrong regarding the location of the data.
I did a little bit of reserach. As I now understand the technology, the data are on the PCs of the users. They use the torrent programs to connect amongst themselves and share data. So there is no server data storing involved. The only thing the server stores are the torrent protocols. So you will gain nothing by tracking down the server. As a matter of fact, the providers only offer the platform for file sharing and reject all responsibility.
And even if you track down a server, chances are that it is outside the US and therefore outside the legal jurisdiction . . .

Andy
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Banester
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Andy, you are correct in some instances, but there are newsgroup servers out there that you can post your information to. Some will even charge you to be a member with exclusive downloading from thier server. The policy below is actually listed from one of those servers:

Quote:
Upon notification to EasyNews of a claimed copyright infringement as described below, EasyNews will respond expeditiously to remove, or disable access to, the material that is claimed to be infringing or to be the subject of infringing activity pursuant to the following terms and conditions:


Like I said if you contact them they will help you.

Also, the guys who are posting things that are questionable are not going to be the ones who have it stored on thier home/business computer.

Justin said his book was listed in the groups, let me clarify what someone would have to do to get it. It is not just going to be listed as book A or book B, it will most likely be 30-40 files each with different names and sometimes not even the correct names or matching ones. Someone would have to download ALL of the files, missing even one file will render the whole thing useless! Once ALL files have been collected it would have to be converted to a different file format, unziped and then combined to make one format. All of this takes special software which would need to be purchased. Still a leak, but not as much exposure as youtube, at least in my opinion.
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives
become filled with joy
-Doug Henning-
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