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alannasser
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Hello,

I find the refusal to provide a demo on the grounds that it would tip the secret to be entirely unconvincing. If it tips the secret to laymen, then the trick is dubious. If it tips to magi, well so what? There is something intuitively unacceptable to the statement: "There is a trick that you should buy, but if you simply want to see it performed before you buy it, that is not allowed."

And Dave advertises this as ACAN, not ACAAN, as some posts seem to imply. In sum, there is something offensive about "You should buy this, but you may not see it performed."

Best,
Alan
fvdbeek
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Alan, you'll get a lot s... over your head in the coming posts, but I'll agree with you.

Frans
Cameron Francis
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Why is that offensive? There are many effects out there without video demos.

I'm not entirely convinced that a demo would completely give away the effect for magicians. But if Dave doesn't want to do a demo, he doesn't have to.

Also, there are several glowing reviews here by reputable people. Not to mention Dave's excellent reputation.

But I understand your reluctance. So... don't buy it. But don't bash the creator for not producing a demo.
MOMENT'S NOTICE LIVE 3 - Six impromptu card tricks! Out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/moments-notice-live-3.html
Dave Forrest
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I told myself I wouldn't do this anymore but....

I feel that a demo video would give certain viewers the impression that they completely understand EVEYTHING that is going on in 'Autobahn'. I then worry that these same certain people would go around showing their 're-construction' to other magicians whilst telling them it was 'that David Forrest's new ACAN effect'. The PDF that is for sale is quite lengthy and contains motivational details, scripting, timing and handling details. All of which I feel are necessary to fully understand 'Autobahn' as a ROUTINE, not as a TRICK! It is my opinion that a demo video would detract from the effect rather than enhance it. ACAN is not a visual event and therefor would not translate well to being advertised in this medium.

I'm sorry for those who feel offended (although I can't honestly understand why anyone would actually be offended!) but it is my product and this is the way I have decided to market it. No one in the thread has complained that they were led down the garden path, everyone seems content that the ad copy is all true so, I don't really see what more there is to say.

All the best,

Dave.
bloodkin
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Good lord. How did we ever add tricks to our shows before video demos? Oh yah, by dealing with reputable dealers and magicians. And I would say on my past purchases from Dave, he fits that category. I'm not saying everybody will like his new trick, but I highly doubt Dave would through his reputation out the window over it.

If you don't buy tricks without a video demo, then just don't buy it.
alannasser
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I'm afraid that some folks misread my post regarding the non-existence of a video demo for Autobahn. I did not object to the decision not to provide a demo. I have no *general* objection to not having access to a video demo; there is no obligation for a creator to provide a video of his product. What I objected to was the alleged "rationale" for not providing one. "It might tip the method." For reasons I tried to make clear, that makes no sense to me. Again: if it tips to laymen, it's no good. If it tips to magi - so what else is new? Most seasoned magi can pretty well figure the method of most demos, including those performed perfectly. If that deters some from purchasing, so what? Perhaps some magi have legitimate reservations to certain kinds of moves. Others might choose to purchase the product even though the demo tipped the method to them. The latter fact would make no difference to the decision as to whether or not to purchase.

I hate to write this, but David's response seems to confirm my position. Look at the first big paragraph. David's reasoning would make *any* demo of *any* trick ill-advised. I agree with Dave that someone *could* reconstruct the trick without having everything in mind that David has in mind when he conceived and performed the effect. But so what? That applies to just about any demo out there. Same for those who *might* reconstruct it and perform it poorly. That this is *possible* reflects a flaw in the universe; it comes with the territory.

Regarding David's distinction between a routine and a trick, of course I accept this distinction. But upon reading David's post, what springs to mind is "Why not demo the *routine*?" All of Regal's demos are of routines. David says that Autobahn is not a visual effect and so would not translate well into the video medium. I have to confess to not really understanding what is meant by that.

None of my remaks are meant to object to anyone's decision, as such, not to provide a demo. Perhaps creators should not [feel obliged to] provide *reasons* for these decisions, since the reasons may arouse suspicions that would never had emerged had the creator just not providede a demo, period. I found David's rationale both unconvincing and unintelligible. This says nothing in general about David's products, most of which I own and have learned from. I certainly did not suggest that David was trying to visit a bum trick onto our community. Nor do my remarks imply, contrary to bloodkin's claim, that one shouldn't purchase a trick without a demo.

Finally, a word about hero worship in our community. Actually, hero worship might not be as apt a term as the old noun 'papism', or 'the popery of the magi'. There's a pope in Rome, but I hope none in our community. I'd be rich if I had a nickel for every time I've read "If Cody [or name your own favorite magician] likes it, that's good enough for me." *Very* common here. Again, I happen to own almost all of Cody's products, and I hold him in high regard. But I really don't care if a respected magician says he likes a certain effect. Think of some of the dreck that Paul Harris has endorsed. And I recall a stimulating thread discussing how one of the tricks that most magi here thought was one of the very worst of 2006 had been endorsed by Ammar, Osterlind and other illuminati. I guess this is a combination of hero worship and popery. Why can't we stop doing that?

fvdbeek above is probably right about this post too: most readers will balk. More power to them, wrong though they be...

Best,

Alan
Dave Forrest
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Alan,

A demo video would not tip the method to laymen - that's absurd. It may however, tip the method to magicians and where you say 'so what?' I would rather that did not happen.

This is nothing more than a difference of opinion. I don't believe that in this instance a demo is a good idea and you clearly would like to see one. If you disagree so strongly with my decision not to provide a demo, then the obvious thing for you to do is NOT BUY IT - simple!

As I said earlier, I can't really see what more there is to say on the matter. If you find my reasoning 'unconvincing and unintelligible' - that's too bad I'm afraid. They remain my reasons none the less.

It seems to me that this rant is perhaps a global complaint rather than one directly aimed at me or the product in question but perhaps you just felt that here was a good example of the type of thing you don't like to see in magic marketing. Well, again that's fine - the world never really works exactly the way we'd like it to, does it?

I still think you are coming across a little 'strong' about something that I feel is quite minor, especially when as I said earlier, your obvious reaction to this offense is to simply not buy it and at the end of the day we are only talking about the fact that no demo has been provided!

It strikes me that perhaps there is something deeper niggling at you behind all this talk of demo video's. Your final paragraph about 'Hero worship' is quite out of the blue and may provide a clue as to what the problem really is.

Anyway, we won't sort out the do's and don't's of magic marketing here in this thread. There are too many opinions from too many parties and each of them may very well see the debate from a different point of view.

Again, I'm sorry to have caused you any offence or any grief of any kind. I hope it doesn't dissuade you from considering any of my products in the future - so long as there is a demo video of course! Smile

To everyone else: Just a quick note while we're on the subject of marketing. I'm running a bit of a special offer at the website right now. I've just moved house and am clearing some old stock. Basically, the deal is, if you buy 'Encased - Signed Card to Card Case' you get FOUR other booklets FREE! These are HOLES, Double Decker, A.I.R and Quickfire! It's a VERY good deal but keep in mind that there is limited stock!

Click the Full 52 link in my signature for more details.

All the best,

Dave.
alannasser
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Dave,

Thanks for the (mostly) balanced and understanding response to what you not-quite-accurately refer to as my "rant." Actually it was a calmly reasoned account of my sense of the inadequacies of your reasons for not including a demo. If you read carefully, I did not even imply that I desire a demo of this interesting effect. It's just that the weak reasons offered for not offering one raised suspicions.

And I'm sorry that I did not make it clear -I thought I did- that I see no connection between the absence of a demo and my decision not to buy it. I won't buy it because while it seems a terrific effect for a performer of a certain kind, it happens not to fit my style. Simple as that, and certainly no aspersions are cast on your work.

And Dave, you are right that this is "an example of the type of thing you don't like to see in magic marketing." but the type of thing I don't like to see is not merely the absence of a demo - it's 1) the absence of a demo for a trick whose particular features elicit among many magi a legitimate desire to see what they are getting, and 2) an alleged reason for not providing a demo that does not make sense. I indicated quite precisely exactly what I thought your stated reasons left to be desired. For one thing, they'd rule out, if applied consistently, just about all demos.

In the same vein, to respond to my objection that "the world never really works exactly the way we'd like it to, does it?" is something one could say about any objection that anyone has to any practice or policy. A guy says "The masked magician did a disservice to the magic community." Another guy responds: "the world never really works exactly the way we'd like it to, does it?" Sorry, that response doesn't fly.

"..at the end of the day we are only talking about the fact that no demo has been provided!" No. My objection was that reasons were given for no demo being provided, and these reasons were impenetrable and confusing. Again: Why not provide a demo of the routine, since you are afraid that some rip off artist, or a bad magician *might* demo the effect as a mere trick rather than as the routine it is meant to be. Then demo it as a routine. Guy goes to the doctor and says "It hurts when I do this [lifts his arm]". Doctor says "Don't do this [lifts his arm]."

Finally, my remarks on hero worship and magician equivalences of the pope were not at all "out of the blue". At least one post said that a demo was not necessary because Cody liked Autobahn. This is an attempt to settle a disputed question by appealing to an argument from authority. No good.

We mustn't forget that all this started with some of us feeling that the description of this effect raised the type of serious question that has led lots of magi to be disappointed with what they got from earlier effects with similar description ambiguities. That's a legit reason to ask for a demo. And David is perfectly within his rights to extend his middle finger to these requests. That won't,in itself, deter me from purchasing many more of Dave's products in the future.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that all have had enough of this dispute. I'm finished with it, and I'd bet that Dave is too. But if he's not, he's welcome to the last word.

Thanks for slogging through this.

Best,
Alan
Cameron Francis
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Alan, hero worship is one thing. Respecting the opinion of someone whose work you enjoy is something else entirely. We're not talking dealer blurbs, here (which is what I believe you were refering to before). We're talking about reviews written by respected people on the Café about a very practical effect.


Also, if you never had any intention of buying the thing, then why in the heck are you complaining about the lack of a demo and the reasons for it?!? You somehow already know that this effect doesn't suit you, so why harp on it?
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Dave Forrest
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Fair enough Alan. It's clear we're never going to see eye to eye on this particular subject. I hve my opinion and you have yours - I'm more than happy to let it drop.

All the best,

Dave.
alannasser
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Thanks to Dave. very gracious, and I look forward to his next creation. And re Cameron's post: I wrote that the "reasons" actually served to raise suspicions. And that they were virtually impossible to understand. That's noteworthy. If you think otherwise, fine.

And re "hero worship": I gave several examples of endorsements given by "respected people" of tricks that were finally regarded as junk. If "If Cody likes it, that's good enough for me." does not ring familiar to Cameron, I give up.

And let the Cameronsky have the last word.

Alan
Cameron Francis
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That's Mr. Cameronsky to you, pal. Smile

It's time to drop this discussion like a hot potato.

Anyone else have any reviews or discussion about the effect itself?
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doiron
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Well, I bought Autobahn and I like it a great deal. It's very clever and dead easy.

As to the vide demo - a creator has the absolute right not to post a demo that "might" tip the secret to the magical community. It would be absurd to ask him to do something like that.

I firmly believe that this will fly over the heads of laymen - even after repeated viewing of a demo. There is the possibility, however, that an educated magician will figure out at least a little something by seeing it performed. So what? We're not in this business to fool magicians.

The bottom line is that an audience will describe the following to their friends: an effect where a card was freely named by one volunteer and a number was freely chosen by another. A spectator was then able to count (all by his or her little self) to that number, turning each card face up while doing it, and then found the chosen card at that exact number! - I can hear them shout: "And the magician NEVER TOUCHED THE CARDS!!!"

No, it's not the Grail. How many effects in the world have Grail presentations anyway? But it's very workable and deceptive.

I also like the presentation a lot. Having said that, after playing around with this over the past two days, I think I'm going to skip the use of my business card. I recognize the marketing aspect of such a move but I think it will fit me better to just use the artwork provided on a card with the obverse blank.

Each to his own, eh?
Dave Forrest
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Hi Rod,

Many thanks for the review. I'm so pleased that you're getting something out of this. Of course, there is no need to use your business cards should you choose not to and I applaud you for making it fit your style.

Folks, Rod is absolutely right - this is not the 'Grail' but rather the most practical ACAN I could conceive without trading off too much of the effect. For example, there are other effects where the card at any number called for matches a prediciton. Personally, I feel this trades off too much of the ACAN (Berglass) effect and while impressive, simply wanders too far off course - it's a different effect.

My aim with Autobahn (and it is not new incidentally, I've been toying with this for years) was to be as close to ACAN 'conditions' as possible while maintaining practicality, reset-ability(?), ease of execution, short performance time, very little process etc, etc.

I'll say it again: No memory work, un-gaffed deck, spectator deals cards face up, ANY card may be named, no outs - works every time, takes up no more pocket space than a deck of cards, very easy to perform - no maths or complicated systems, can be performed start to finish in a couple of minutes, leaves the table/group with two business cards that WILL be kept as souvenirs. As it says on the cover - designed specifically with the close-up worker in mind!

I could go on all day but really, if you are a table hopper or walkaround magician and you want to be able to perform the ACAN effect all night long, table after table, then this may just be what you are looking for.

And, if you want something a little closer to the 'Grail', ie. ANY card, ANY number, spectator deals cards face up, no cards left in box, completely un-gimmicked deck, no sleigt of hand, no maths or memory work etc, etc. Then I have also published 'ROUTE 1', my other ACAN efffect, which meets all these conditions but is perhaps less suitable for table hopping or walk around. (It can certainly be used in these conditions but wasn't specifically designed for it.)

Cheers folks,

Dave.
Christopher Williams
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Can this use a borrowed deck? Can the deck be shuffled? So I can perform at one table, then use the same deck for the rest of my effects, and then go to the next table and perform Autobahn?
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Copies of the limited edition 'MindPlay' still available
Dave Forrest
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Chris,

Are you serious? How many times have you been working tables or strolling and found the opportunity to borrow a deck of cards? Likewise, how does shuffling the deck enhance an ACAN effect? Answer - it doesn't - it would DETRACT from the effect. Moving the cards around is exactly what ACAN is NOT about!

There are numerous ACAN type routines in print where you can go into the effect from a deck in use if this is what you're after. Michael Close has a VERY good routine like this, it was part of his lecture the last time I saw it.

In short, the answer to all of your questions, I'm VERY pleased to tell you, is no.

Dave.
gdw
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I must be completely honest.

I bought Autobahn, and, although I do like the thinking, I prefer Route 1, and the thinking behind that.

Largely because it allows for TRULY ANY card at ANY number.

I don't think that I am giving away too much with that. It is just that I have found that this method is less practical, at least for me.

Basically, if you are going to use a deck like in Autobahn, then you are best to be someone who does a lot of that kind of deck work, and no, it is not a mem deck.

But if you do NOT use this often, then, I personally, would not like to have a single deck for a single effect. Not that you can't do more effects with it, it is just that I do not do more effects with this kind of work. Scratch that, it's not really any work at all, but with this type of, um, thing.

Also the lack of their card really being at ANY number kinda detracts from imo.

The fact that you can use Route 1 with ANY card at ANY number, AND you can use the deck(s) for anything else you like, and then go into Route 1 makes it far more practical to me.

Not that Autobahn really is anything bad, I completely understand David's thinking and the desire to offer an alternative with other requirements in mind for people. I just feel he had a much better and more versatile hit with the thinking in Route 1.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Christopher Williams
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Quote:
On 2007-07-21 15:38, Dave Forrest wrote:
Chris,

Are you serious? How many times have you been working tables or strolling and found the opportunity to borrow a deck of cards? Likewise, how does shuffling the deck enhance an ACAN effect? Answer - it doesn't - it would DETRACT from the effect. Moving the cards around is exactly what ACAN is NOT about!

There are numerous ACAN type routines in print where you can go into the effect from a deck in use if this is what you're after. Michael Close has a VERY good routine like this, it was part of his lecture the last time I saw it.

In short, the answer to all of your questions, I'm VERY pleased to tell you, is no.

Dave.



Yes I was being serious. I don't borrow a deck of cards at gigs, but there are the occasions where I have had people at club gigs or restaurants, sometimes pubs, saying, 'Use these'. So I was curious if I could use this routine in those situations, as I am a worker, and these are just some of the types of places I perform.

Why does shuffling help? Because there are some effects, such as spell to any named card. People have said to me, oh, but the deck must be set to spell to every card...the usual response. I used to use Ken Krenzels method of doing the ACAAN within the card box. Then I honestly had people saying things like 'They are set up to count to any number, or people name that number all the time etc'. Now I use a version from a friend of mine, and the spectator shuffles, you can borrow a deck, ANY deck, the cards don't have to all be there etc. It is to be released as a package soon, and I think it will be one of the best releases in years, but this isn't the place to talk about that. So yes, to me, shuffling helps.
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gdw
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I think you COULD do Route 1 with a borrowed deck. With some thinking. Now I commented about Route 1 before, as I have just recently stumbled upon the thinking behind it, but do not own it, yet. (I just ordered it, so will have it soon, lol, depending on when Dave sends it Smile ) They hand you one, and you say, good idea, but I'll do a special trick with it, and you put it in your pocket, and then bring it out later for Route 1, AFTER you do a few effects with your own deck.

Assuming the type they offer you is the type you are set to use.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Steve Martin
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Regarding the issue of demo video - if you saw a demo of this video, it would be pretty much equivalent to reading the PDF (minus one or two aspects that are described in more detail in the PDF). This is because after seeing the video you would put in the required additional thinking to work out the general method. Since Dave wants to make some revenue from the idea and routine, it makes no sense for him to show a video. This seems fair enough to me. I think the written advert gives enough of a flavour of the effect on which to decide whether or not to purchase it. I would say that this effect has the capacity to be deceptive and entertaining in the real world, as most people (especially if the trick is presented well) are not going to put in that additional thinking that would lead to the method. On this basis, I don't agree with Alan's objection to Dave not providing a video for this trick.
Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking.
Albert Einstein
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