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Danno New user Boston 94 Posts |
We always tell people to "buy the effect if you want to know how it's done"
We also tell people to buy the effect from the originator and not any cheap knock offs. An example of this would be Anders Moden healed and sealed. We want people to buy from him directly (or at least his effect) because he deserves to reap the rewards of his hard work. Here at the Café we have a section called "Let's Make a magic deal" Where people can buy and sell used magic tricka, videos, and books. This seems hypocritical to me. So, I go out and buy, let's say, The Raven. I use it for awhile and then sell it to someone else. Haven't I just taken money away from the creator of the effect? He has lost a sale. Your thoughts... For the record, I'm playing devils advocate here. I would and have bought used tricks, but I think this could be a valid argument. |
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shinobi Loyal user Durban, South Africa 272 Posts |
Interesting point. The whole issue of claim of origin and creation can be a tricky one too. I know this isn't exactly in keeping with the topic, but I feel it is related and relevant.
For example I have seen a marketed effect (at a HEFTY price) bearing someone's name that I read about before that in an OLD book in my library. Now I understand the presentation is his, is original, it is well thought out, and entertaining. But I also know lots of magi change the presentation of an effect to suit their personality. So now if I took the principal (the tricky bit) which I learned from a book, and dressed it in my style, should I feel obliged to to buy the effect from the "originator" due to performance rights issues? My personal opinion is no, but maybe there is a side to this arguement I don't know. Something else that gets me is inventors/dealers going overboard on pricing. If they have put a lot of effort into the effect, is particularly impressive, and the labour/parts are pricey, then this justifies a high price. But when the gimmick is cheap, and the principal freely available...I'm probably going to get flak for these comments. Take the raven as an example since you mentioned it. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the price rose after the Blaine show. And while it's a powerful effect, the principals are rather old. I don't want to expose anything here, so just think of the two main components. A p>>> and a M>>>>> I'm sure magi ages ago were using this. Please don't get me wrong.. I HATE intellectual theft. I know there have been several instances of "cheap knock offs" and this is inexcusable. So is false advertising where dealers/inventors make grossly exaggerated claims or omissions. My humble opinions, ric |
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-02-03 13:28, Danno wrote: Nope. Once you sell it, you're not going to be using it anymore, right? So, only one person will be using it, and one copy was purchased. Nothing has been taken away from the creator. Now, if you sell it, but only after making one for yourself that you continue to use, you are stealing from the creator. In this instance, there are two people using the Raven, but only one was bought. See the difference? -Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 17th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
For fun, let us blur the lines a bit.
Say I buy the Black Envelope DVD, learn the effect, decide it's just not me so sell the DVD. If a paying gig comes up where I can use this effect do I have to go out and re-purchase the DVD?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Danno New user Boston 94 Posts |
There are lots of people selling videos and books. If you're selling your 6 tape set of Michael Ammar's Easy to Master Card Miracles, isn't this wrong?
I mean, I'm sure you got at least one or two good routines off those tapes that you would use regularly. And I disagree about no longer using the Raven and selling it being OK. I would be interested in hearing from the good folks that actually create these tricks and what they think about this. If there wasn't someone willing to sell me their Raven, or a place to even purchase used magic, I would just buy my own. So, in fact, I HAVE taken money from the creator. |
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debaser Special user Boulder 557 Posts |
The legal deal of it is that you can sell anything you have bought. Period.
What about reading a book and selling it to a bookstore or giving it to a library or passing it down to your children? What are you supposed to do with it when you're done? (Burn it?) When you sell your car, isn't that taking money away from Toyota (if there were no used cars to buy, everyone would have to buy new ones - right?) Within legal limits the morality is your own. But remember that magic tricks are like anything else you buy. Matt |
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Dave Egleston Special user Ceres, Ca 632 Posts |
Danno says, "If you're selling your 6 tape set of Michael Ammar's Easy to Master Card Miracles, isn't this wrong?"
Bad example There's a guy named Busby who'll threaten a lawsuit if you try to sell a certain set of cups 2nd hand This is always an interesting subject. As pointed out, a prop/book/video that isn't duplicated is private property and can be sold by that individual, but as Payne says, does that imply you'll no longer perform the effects on that tape/book? That's interesting. But I'd say it's OK. You can go to a Darwin Ortiz lecture and he'll teach you several effects from his tapes and books. You don't have to own his publications to perform his tricks Dave |
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rkrahlmann Regular user 168 Posts |
Interesting conversation. As far as products go, if you buy a Raven or whatever and sell it, my opinion is that it is no different than buying and selling a used car. The people who make any product get their money from the first purchase. After that, it is no longer theirs to make a decision about.
The twist with books and videos is that essentially, the author is selling information, just like people who sell real estate courses. Is it ethical for people who buy a real estate course to sell it after they have gleaned the information? I think so. The may use some or all of it, but they bought the right to the information, in book or tape or video form, and have the right to sell the physical property again. If I buy the tapes, copy them, then sell the originals used, I would consider this theft. I have gained the intellectual information, and retained a physical copy of it. However, no one has the right to put their name on the information and sell it later. This is intellectual theft. I also wonder how many sales are lost to the author from people buying used magic books and videos. I'm guessing the percentage is small. Also, many people, having purchased something used, will be inspired to buy other original products. There's a company that sells motivational and informational tapes. They have a unconditional money back guarantee, even after six months. I'm sure there is a small percentage of people who make copies of the tapes and send them back, but the company doesn't appear to be concerned about it. I would guess if they tracked people who only ordered tapes and sent them back, they'd cut them off. The point is, they don't focus on this small percentage of customers, (if any). Nor do they monitor if people are making copies and selling the originals used. My guess is they consider it a part of doing business. Trust most people to be honest, and market like crazy to the customers they have. And they're thriving. My 2 cents..... |
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Danno New user Boston 94 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-02-03 21:58, Dave Egleston wrote: Why exactly is this a bad example? This is true to life, if I'm going to be honest. I have ALL 6 of these tapes. I've made detailed notes in my journal of about a dozen tricks that I like the best and as far as I'm concerned, I'm done with them. I understand the legalities of this. Bottom line is: It's not illegal, it's just the morality issue. Maybe for books and videos, there should be a buy back program with the author? Magic IS NOT the same as buying a used car. There are secrets involved in these products. I can't test drive a magic trick. |
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Jon Gallagher Veteran user Elmwood, Illinois 395 Posts |
Back in the late 70's, I bought most of my props used. There was no internet so that I could check the best prices, and I lived about 50 miles from the nearest magic shop. That particular shop was run by a guy who I didn't really trust. It seemed that his interest was not in whether I got an effect I could use, but rather whether he made enough money off the transaction.
About 15 miles from me, there was a little old lady named Leola LaWain (some of the old timers here may remember her). She and her husband Jack ran LaWain's House of Magic until he passed away in 1976. She continued to run it, selling used magic. She told me that it was her job to recycle effects that would otherwise be lost. At this time, a new zig zag sold through Tannen's for $1195.00. There was no way I could afford that when the most you could get for a birthday party was about $25 and a bigger show, maybe $100. Mrs. LaWain took one in trade from a touring circus act and called me. I bought it and own it to this day. Had it not been for her, I would never have been able to afford it. Without the zig zag, I would never have been able to do enough bigger shows to buy other things. I didn't buy the prop, measure it, and build another for resale. I used it and have continued using it for the past 25 years. It's older than my daughter who now performs the illusion with me. Garth Brooks once made a big deal about people who sell used CDs. Bought a ticket to one of his concerts lately? He shouldn't complain. Magicians who make videos should make sure that they get enough to satisfy them monitarily. I recently paid $40 for a new VHS tape for a routine I really wanted to learn. I'm sure someone in my IBM ring could have taught it to me. And I know that someone made a nice profit on the tape. If and when I get ready to sell the tape, I sure won't get my money back, but then, I shouldn't expect to. After all, I'm going to get the routine I want (I probably won't sell it either) and I paid a fair price for it. If I didn't think it was fair, then I wouldn't have paid that much for it. |
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rkrahlmann Regular user 168 Posts |
I admit the used car/magic trick analogy is troubled at best. I understand there are secrets involved, so it isn't a completely fair comparison. My point was both are physical products that, after purchase, the purchaser has the right to dispose of as they please.
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
There are several issues at work here:
Morality, ethics, legality, analogies, etc. So, if I buy a book and sell it, can I use any of the effects in it? Sure, why not? You could do that if it were in a library. So what's the difference? (In fact, before you attempt to point out a difference, ALL of the magic I learned for about my first five years came from books I got from the local library!) And if I buy a tape or DVD, can I sell it and continue to do the effects? Again, sure, why not? Look at the tape or DVD as a lecture. The lecturer comes in, lectures, and goes on to lecture elsewhere. Same with a DVD or tape: You get it, learn from it, and then someone else does the same. You don't pay the lecturer every time you use an effect he taught you, so why would you do it with a tape or DVD? In the case of a trick, if you sell it -- as has been pointed out -- you aren't using it any more. The creator has already got his money out of it (from the original sale). But what about the secret, you ask. Well, magic dealers are always saying that, when you buy a trick, you are buying the secret. So, if the trick is yours to sell -- which it is -- then so should the secret! It's that simple. You can't have it both ways! |
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Chance Wolf Inner circle 2425 Posts |
Hey folks, I will chime in on this topic as a CREATOR of Magic Effects. I pretty much agree with the points above. I have invested a TON of time and money in order to give people some new magic, BUT, after they are SOLD, I have NO concern whatsoever as for what happens afterwards (with the EXCEPTION of someone RIPPING OFF my idea!). Resale as a used item is expected and totally acceptable in my opinion. I thank God that someone trusted me enough to buy my ideas. Call it good and let the people on a budget save a few bucks on the used effects.
Shinobi, I must take issue with you on the Raven. Yes, both priciples were pre-existing, however, it was the creator's IDEA to combine them for one heck of a cool effect which made it more magical than the two principles standing alone. I believe this to be a situation that deserves a reward beyond the cost involved. Also, never forget, these are sold at wholesale, usually 40% to 50% of retail price. Deduct materials and what do you have left for labor and profit? Not as much as most people think. And don't forget compensation for R&D!! This is always overlooked and is critical. Not trying to yell at ya, just makin' a case. Great thoughts you have otherwise. Take care, Chance Wolf
Creator of Wacky Wolf Productions & Fine Collectibles
A DECADE of building Magic and we're just getting started! http://www.wolfsmagic.com |
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kingsnqueens New user Oklahoma 77 Posts |
Thanks, Peter. So wisely spoken.
If I buy a trick does it belong to me? Can I break it if I want to? Can I throw it away? Yeah! Why not? It's mine isn't it? Most things out there are really just old tricks updated. "Dean's Box," he didn't invent it! Ask him he'll tell you. Linking Rings! We shouldn't buy them because the guy 3,000 years ago isn't getting his cut. Isn't it wrong for dealers to sell them? If I buy a video, DVD, and make copies to sell I'm a crook, and I'd deserve to be punished. If I buy a video learn what want from it, and sell it to another magician who cares? It's my video isn't it, and won't I go buy another video? People buy Cokes, cars, and magic tricks to sell to other people all the time. It's called CAPITALISM. Hey, what about the dealers that sell junk, for big bucks, and then say I can't do anything about it because now you know the secret? There are great dealers out there. Many of them will tell a good customer, "You can buy it, but I really don't think you'll be happy with it." There are those that if you don't like the effect will give your money back as long as the item is in the same condition you received it in. They're aware that if they keep you happy you'll come back & buy more from them. If a dealer sell you a piece of junk, how many more chances are you going give them to rip you off? I try to buy from those who love magic like I do. They're happy when I sell my old stuff because they know they're going to sell me more stuff, and I have money to buy it. To think about it, if I never sold any of my magic I wouldn't have room in my house to buy the new stuff! Manyfingers |
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-02-03 23:25, Peter Marucci wrote: So, by your logic, only one person needs to buy a book/video. He can then learn what he wants from it and pass it on to whomever he wishes. This guy can learn what he wants, and pass it along. How long will this chain go on? If we take it to the ridiculous end, the chain will end when all the magicians in the world have seen this one book/video. The creator sells ONE book/video, and ALL the magicians in the world have the right to use that material? Do you really agree with that? Based on what you said, it seems you do. Personally, I think that's ridiculous. And, if I was a creator, I'd be *****. But that's just me. Please note that I'm not against selling book/videos/tricks used. Just don't continue to use that material after you've sold it, unless you own another valid source for it. -Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 17th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)
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thehawk Inner circle 2275 Posts |
When people sell their unwanted magic they end up buying more magic which just keeps everything going. Some people buy the new, latest magic and then sell it so they can buy more which makes the dealers and the creators happy.
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debaser Special user Boulder 557 Posts |
If someone really likes the material in a book they probably won't sell it. If you learned the tricks in a book and then sell it you will eventually probably forget how to do something. Also, if a book is good it is referenced a lot and that's another reason to keep it.
However, since most material turns out to be junk, it should be sold. If I spent 40 bucks on a book and liked one trick in it that I performed occasionally, I certainly wouldn't have any problems selling it. If what you're selling is truly good, it will not be resold or copied (since you don't want the word to spread too much). In short, make good stuff and you'll make good money. Make bad stuff and you'll make money in the short run anyway. matt |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Jim Maloney writes: "So, by your logic, only one person needs to buy a book/video. He can then learn what he wants from it and pass it on to whomever he wishes. This guy can learn what he wants, and pass it along. How long will this chain go on?"
That's right, and the chain will go on as long as the book/video holds up and the purchaser doesn't want a permanent copy for himself. Which means that MANY more than one copy will be sold. But even if they aren't, so what? That's the system by which we live; you can't change the rules halfway through the game! I have created and marketed a number of effects and routines. Some have been re-sold, some have been kept; that's fine. Some have been ripped off; that's not so fine but there's nothing I can do about it, or am going to do about it. Jim also writes: "Please note that I'm not against selling book/videos/tricks used. Just don't continue to use that material after you've sold it, unless you own another valid source for it." Why not? As I said, if I go to a lecture and the lecturer teaches me something, can I not use it once he leaves town? He's been paid for the lecture, I paid -- directly or indirectly -- to go to the lecture. There's absolutely no difference, except in the medium through which you got the information. The other "valid source" that Jim refers to is your own brain (or memory, if you will). And that works as well with a purchased (and resold) book or tape, a library book or tape, or a "live" lecturer. Person A creates a book, tape, or effect; Person B buys it; Person A has received his payment and, if B (the new owner) sells it or keeps it, that's not going to affect A's single payment for a single book, tape, or effect. If A doesn't want it to be sold, then he has to explain that to B clearly and before he buys the product. That rarely, if ever, happens. So B is perfectly within his legal and ethical rights in reselling the product if he wishes. And, if only one book or tape is sold, then "them's the breaks". |
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Danno New user Boston 94 Posts |
Quote:
And if I buy a tape or DVD, can I sell it and continue to do the effects? But if I buy a tape, learn tricks from it, then get my money back by selling the tape, I've just gotten the information for free. It would be like attending a lecture, paying $30.00 for admission, then getting my $30.00 back on the way out. |
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Andy Leviss Inner circle NYC 1179 Posts |
Must be something in the Boston air or water, 'cuz Danno's got it right on in that last post.
Peter writes: Quote:
Again, sure, why not? Look at the tape or DVD as a lecture. The lecturer comes in, lectures, and goes on to lecture elsewhere. Same with a DVD or tape: You get it, learn from it, and then someone else does the same. Your analogy is flawed, Peter. When the lecturer moves on to the next town to teach his effects to somebody else, the lecturer is getting paid again for teaching it to that new person. When you sell a DVD to somebody else, the person teaching on the DVD doesn't make jack diddly for teaching that second person. Selling the DVD is more akin to my seeing a lecturer, and then going to a friend and saying, "Hey, I paid $25 to this guy to teach me his effect. If you pay me $20, I'll teach it to you, and we can both do it!" To quote a long-missed TV clown of my childhood, "Homey don't play that!" --A
Note: I have PMs turned off; if you want to reach me, please e-mail [email]Andy.MagicCafe@DucksEcho.com[/email]!
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