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onbekende020
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Hello everybody,

I was thinking about the following the other day:

The Zarrow shuffle is supposed to be one of the few techniques that went from the magic world to the gambling world.

Wich other moves/techniques are there, that went from the magic world to the gambling world? Besides that, which magic sleights do you consider to be of use at the card table?

Im currently working on the Spread Cull, where I could cull a few cards while searching for jokers. This only really will work when I ask for another deck during the game...

USM
Expertmagician
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I am not a historian .... but, I am sure that their are many gamblers TODAY, who learn from the magic world even though it may have originated with gambling.

I believe it is a symbiotic relationship.
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Vandy Grift
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Quote:
On 2007-07-17 10:41, USM#80 wrote:
Im currently working on the Spread Cull, where I could cull a few cards while searching for jokers. This only really will work when I ask for another deck during the game...

USM


I'm not sure it would. When you get a new deck, you don't need to search through it to find the jokers. I would not consider the spread cull as a useful move for the card table.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
Expertmagician
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Gamblers tend to be more secretive than magicians because their life is on the line. However, the secrecy also comes at a cost.....

A good example would be dice makers.....it is a dying art because the old timers are not teaching younger people.

The secrecy also stifles innovation.

I personally believe that the greatest advantage that a gambler has is timing, misdirection and the gift of gab. Without these skills, the best gimmicks, and sleight of hand can be tipped.

Af course we can't forget...trying to elimate "tells" which many times tip moves .... not because you see the move, but, because you "feel" the move and can sense what happened.

Eliminating these tells can be a challenge.
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Unknown419
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Who Said We Only Search Through The Deck To Take Out The Jokers?

Quote:
...When you get a new deck, you don't need to search through it to find the jokers. I would not consider the spread cull as a useful move for the card table.


Vandy I'm sorry to have to disagree with you on this but the spread cull is perfect for a card game. Why?

Say for instance I come to your game and cap the deck as I pick it up with 3 to 4 N-Stripper Aces that I've taken from my Card Sorter. While looking through your deck using the spread-culling technique I take your original Aces and place them to the top in order to steal these cards from play, I leave mine making the deck still have 52 cards so now your deck is my deck and your original Aces have went to my card(s) to wallet.

The Cheating Begins

Now while playing Tonk/Gin/Coon-Can/Poker etc. I will know that you have an Ace in your hand while I have two incase you want to knock; for playing Texas Hold'em head-up, I will have two Aces and you will have one-ouch; Incase there are more people in the game I can do the Doc/Steven's Cull Control and stack a hand while in the process of shuffling the deck or for Georgia Skin/Whoppi I can pull one of these cards from the deck to play knowing that the other cards are all at the lower portion of the deck or all at the top so that I can win these particular games. I can also strip these cards to the bottom of the deck, beat the cut to deal bottoms or middles or I can use this particular technique to cut high cards or to place edge work in on a game.

Many a top hustler's have gotten robbed using their own deck and now imagine me placing 2 more suits in their deck when I look through it again-ouch. I believe ya'll call this trick the !0 Card Poker Routine of which we call it the 9 Card Poker because the deck holds the 10th card.


Take Care

Respectfully,

Doc
tommy
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Ed Marlo's First Estimation Method. It takes a long time to master this to a point were you can get it dead right ever single time at a glance but it's the best and most profitable thing I have used at the table that I found in the world of magic.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
mike herbert
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I agree with you Expertmagician, the two are symbiotic. I think that there are many magicians that could learn a lot more than sleights from gamblers. One of the most magical performances that I have seen was a bunch of guys working the three card monte, they truly gave the illusion that the dealer was an old boy, on his own, who really wasn’t any good at what he was doing. They played upon the greed of the passers by who couldn’t resist the urge of making some easy cash (emotional need).

Yet the monte team still got the money!

Unless you knew what was going on there wouldn’t have been even the slightest inkling that the dealer was making any kind of move at the critical times, and there definitely wouldn’t have been suspicion of other team mates there. They had thought of every angle and every nuance so as to appear natural, and to misdirect the victim away from the true nature of the game.

I think that true magicians of old (shaman, witches etc) would have taken a similar path as cheats, they fulfilled a need by using secret methods that would never have been suspected. There was a purpose to what they did, I personally consider that today, there are many magic tricks that have no real reason or purpose for their existence, and probably (dare I say it) many magicians who have never even considered the true emotional needs of their audience.

Mike
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Doc,

I hear you. I guess to me the spread cull just looks too much like you are looking for something and doen't really look like something anyone should be doing at a card table.

I'm not opposed to culling and copping. I just think spreading the deck out in front of yourself and obviously looking for something in it, seems fishy. It's quite possible you can do it in a such a way that no one would snap to the fact that you are looking for certain cards. I don't deny that. I believe you can do just about whatever you want to with a deck of cards and I absolutely bow to your superior skill. Still, you could get them on the pick up and do the same thing you described just as easily.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
Unknown419
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Vandy I do have to agree with you on the fishy look but have you ever seen Koysta do the Roadrunner Cull? That fooled the hell out of me and did not look fishy at all and it was done so fast it was unbelievable. Being that he does it so well is THE ONLY REASON I have to disagree with you. I'm studying his technque now and being that I heard that his video will be out in about 3 months, I'm getting a head-start on it.

So in other words if it wasn't for his technique and various magicians who do the move excellent I would have totally agreed with you.

Take Care My Friend and Thanks for Writing Back and Your Excellent View On Things As A Gambler.


Respectfully,

Doc
rawdawg
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Depending on the game, you can use a face up spread cull to locate the "outs" that the losing hand needed to win the pot. Under the cover of the appropriate remarks and jeering, you cull whatever you need. Granted, you can't do this every hand but there are moments.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
Unknown419
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Rawdawg you are absolutely right and I couldn't have explained it any clearer.

Thank You


Doc
rawdawg
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Thank you Doc for being far more generous to the community than you need to be.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
Vandy Grift
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Quote:
On 2007-07-17 17:18, Unknown419 wrote:
Vandy I do have to agree with you on the fishy look but have you ever seen Koysta do the Roadrunner Cull? That fooled the hell out of me and did not look fishy at all and it was done so fast it was unbelievable. Being that he does it so well is THE ONLY REASON I have to disagree with you.


Well, you may have me then. I must admit, I have heard some great things about the Roadrunner cull but have never seen it. If you have seen it and think there is value there, you are probably right. I can't comment any further because I haven't seen it done. But I trust your instincts, if you think it's workable, it probably is. I'll look out for it.

Dawg, as I've said many times before; there are no absolutes. What you say above is true. Of course in a game where people allow such "dalliances" as Erdnase might say, you could probably cull them right out in the open. But that's neither here nor there. I'm not trying to be difficult. I take both yours and Docs comments to heart and will definately think about it.

Doc I second what Dawg says, thanks for everything.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
Dannydoyle
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Doc I have to say till you mentioned working on the cull that fooled you I was a bit dubious. Not so much so as to mention it though LOL.

It "seems odd" to me, BUT I have never seen it in action so maybe the way I am thinking of it is WAY out of context. I have trouble imagining the context, but that does not mean it does not exist or will not pass. Quite the opposite in fact LOL.

Dawg, your explination really does help with finding a context though I will say. I am still fuzzy, but clearing up nicely LOL!
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Logan Five
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Let's see from the magic world to the gambling world??? I have always thought that the Shank Shuffle is very similar to what gambler's call the " Sky Shuffle " to be able to convince the eye-in-the-sky that the cards are being randomly shuffled in casino blackjack.
Self concept is destiny..
tommy
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I have found that cheating at cards is more like finding a system than a move, and magicians never teach a system because they have never worked it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
C. Loubard
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Usm#80, personally, I don't agree that the zarrow is a magic move moved to the gambling world. Recently, I saw a hustler do the zarrow, and I commented on how well it looked. He looked at me totally confused and asked "what is a zarrow?." He said he had learned it from an old timer in prison. he also said, if I noticed it, it was worthless.

Why? because the point of it is to be invisible.

personally, I've yet to see someone do a zarrow that has flown by me. Yes I may have not seen the actual pushing of the moves, but I have always been tipped off by a tell.

I am not knocking magicians, but I am glad they have an ego. It seems when they come up with something they have to publish it right away and make the world privy to it. because of that, hustlers have more material to learn from... not what to do. I'm not saying magic moves will not fly, but they give a false sense of confidence to the uninformed. my biggest accomplishments was skinning a table with magicians for mere pennies. for some of us, sometimes it is about ego.

Doc posted a video, sometime ago, of his friend the dice hustler. do some of you remember what his friend was saying? "That there is what your friend was trying to do"

Doc also thought his infinity shift was original, but realized it was a variation of thompson's shift.

My point is, don't ever think a move hasn't been invented. the difference is someone published it and made it public.

C. Loubard

P.S. Doc, your boy on the West Coast got your message about the shift. He couldn't answer the phone; he and I were in the middle of something.

We're out of town right now but will get back next week.

thanks for the 411 DOC, much appreciated. By the way he has a story for you.
silverking
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I agree with C. Loubard, the Zarrow is a pretty obvious false shuffle if you know what you're looking for, and it's very difficult to conceal it without cupping both hands around the front of the deck, a hard tell to get rid of with a Zarrow.

If you don't cup your hands around the front, then you see the packet get pushed in......I guess you gotta choose one or the other.

I think the Zarrow flys well doing magic for laymen, or playing poker with the guys from college who don't even understand the concept, but with fast company I don't think it's the shuffle of choice, and I think it's easily seen.
rawdawg
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Has anyone seen either Steve Reynold's or Gary Plant's execution of the Zarrow? And if they have, would they be convinced enough to throw cold hard cash into the pot without hesistation if they didn't have prior knowledge of said gentlemen?

One of these days, I'd like to gather enough cojones to double lift the river card and KM the extra one off as I set the card onto the board. Once I do that, then I will go for peeking the burn card, Laser dealing it into the muck and re-dealing it to the board. One can always dream....
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
Unknown419
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Hey Vandy imagine this...someone has replaced his 4 to 8 cards for yours. This is what will happen in a Georgia Skin or Whoppi Game of which many of ya'll know nothing about.

Note: Those who understand what's happening keep it to yourself and those of you who don't well....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo3BMqHCTDc

Take Care

Respectfully,

Doc
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