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Bill Palmer
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Nobody is saying that people shouldn't buy things from Theory 11. My point is that it's an internet store. Once the core guys get this thing off the ground, you will find that their business will be handled by hired staff.

My two biggest gripes with P have been that their telephone staff generally knew zip about magic. And of course there are all the knockoffs.

My chief gripe about Ellusionist is that you can spot an Ellusionist magician within 30 seconds of his/her taking a deck of cards out of his metal clip.

Theory 11 may or may not be the next logical step. I'll sit back and watch.

Don't expect anything someone else does to help you actually be a better magician. YOU are the one who determines that, not some web site.
"The Swatter"

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Silvio Solaris
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Yes that is true Naquada and I don't want to point any fingers here. Obviously my statement is not directed towards you. You can't conceive a statement and try to just aim it towards certain people and think they understand it. Hey, if you all enjoyed the game that's great. There will always be individuals who agree and people who disagree with someones opinion. That's called freedom of choice. Free will.

My post was intended as an honest advice without twisting any arm.
Whatever is true for an individual is true for him.

I learned magic at a time where the www didn't even exist. I just feel to stand up and give my opinion about this T11 game because it communicated to be something other then just another 'store'. I followed the whole thread and read the comments of some of the T11 members saying that they felt it is going to be something revolutionary for magicians...(Nobody at this point had any idea that it is 'just' a store). Certainly the final and somewhat disappointed comments after the reveal of T11 from most of the people who ecstaticaly followed the game actually speak for themself.
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'Is all that we see and seem but a dream within a dream?' E.A.Poe
emanmagic5
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I think part of the reason to why Houchin left E is because he said to them he was working with Paul Harris on a project... But E thinks he was not, so arguments started and know he left them. He still has to realese one more thing through E or he will be in big trouble!

I know a lot more about E's troubles but can't really say them here, or at all.
W:H
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Quote:
On 2007-09-02 04:50, Bill Palmer wrote:

...Theory 11 may or may not be the next logical step. I'll sit back and watch.

Don't expect anything someone else does to help you actually be a better magician. YOU are the one who determines that, not some web site.


Wow! Well said Bill. I completely understand your position. We (Theory 11) still have to prove ourselves & that is something that we are CONFIDENT that we can do. Yes, it is an online store - but it is also so much more. It is a community. Our passion for teaching & advancing the art via an intelligent community that can rise above the politics of online magic is very real. Of course, us telling you that does nothing to prove it, but over time...

In the past, magic as an art has been pushed forward within our community via the magic clubs and meetings. Those physical meetings had / have the expressed purpose of advancing our art through proper instruction from professionals - and by encouraging discussion & debate within the meeting. It is a sad fact that those PHYSICAL meetings are dying off. More and more people are going on-line. Theory 11 is NOT just about selling products, it is about nurturing & encouraging the next generation of magicians. Our goals with T11 are identical to those of the magic clubs & meetings. And for those of you who stick around & pay attention, that will become very clear.

P.S. It was great meeting you in Texas. How is the museum?
Masonogy1
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Quote:
On 2007-09-02 12:01, W:H wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-09-02 04:50, Bill Palmer wrote:

...Theory 11 may or may not be the next logical step. I'll sit back and watch.

Don't expect anything someone else does to help you actually be a better magician. YOU are the one who determines that, not some web site.


Wow! Well said Bill. I completely understand your position. We (Theory 11) still have to prove ourselves & that is something that we are CONFIDENT that we can do. Yes, it is an online store - but it is also so much more. It is a community. Our passion for teaching & advancing the art via an intelligent community that can rise above the politics of online magic is very real. Of course, us telling you that does nothing to prove it, but over time...

In the past, magic as an art has been pushed forward within our community via the magic clubs and meetings. Those physical meetings had / have the expressed purpose of advancing our art through proper instruction from professionals - and by encouraging discussion & debate within the meeting. It is a sad fact that those PHYSICAL meetings are dying off. More and more people are going on-line. Theory 11 is NOT just about selling products, it is about nurturing & encouraging the next generation of magicians. Our goals with T11 are identical to those of the magic clubs & meetings. And for those of you who stick around & pay attention, that will become very clear.

P.S. It was great meeting you in Texas. How is the museum?


Wayne, I'm not sure if this is possible... But if you say jamming sessions in REAL life are dying out, would there be some way to incorporate an online jamming session via webcams on Theory 11? Just an idea, would be cool if it could work...
W:H
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Well, just to clarify, I don't believe JAMMING sessions are dying out - that's something that will continue to happen as long as there are two or more guys in one room who know anything about our art. What is slowly dying are the official magic meetings & clubs.

But to address your question, that is something that we are absolutely working on. That is just ONE of the many things that we will be doing to create a SERIOUS community. I personally want to see an online community that is a safe place for people who have genuine questions about the art. A place where people not only have the opportunity to jam, but if they have a question or concern, they can get answers from reliable professionals.

We are also working on ways that we can study or work on specific problems/areas of magic as a group... Let me know if you have any ideas or suggestions.

Wayne Houchin
http://www.theory11.com
Masonogy1
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That's sweet dude! I hope you get that webcam jamming option up and running, it would be awesome for the community...

Oh and yes I do have an idea for your last question... What you should do is take videos from your members section (a video that exhibits certain aspects which need improving etc) and then get the TEAM of T11 to run through what is wrong with it and what could be doen BETTER performance or sleight wise! I think this would GREATLY benefit your community and individuals aswell!
Ben Train
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Quote:
On 2007-09-02 12:01, W:H wrote:

Wow! Well said Bill. I completely understand your position. We (Theory 11) still have to prove ourselves & that is something that we are CONFIDENT that we can do. Yes, it is an online store - but it is also so much more. It is a community. Our passion for teaching & advancing the art via an intelligent community that can rise above the politics of online magic is very real. Of course, us telling you that does nothing to prove it, but over time...

Theory 11 is NOT just about selling products, it is about nurturing & encouraging the next generation of magicians. Our goals with T11 are identical to those of the magic clubs & meetings. And for those of you who stick around & pay attention, that will become very clear.



This is my first post on the subject, but I had to respond after reading this.

I recently (as in 3 days ago) attended Canada's Premier magic camp, which featured Wayne as a special guest. His passion and generosity was noticed by EVERYONE there, and I have NO DOUBTS that his intentions are what he says- a sincere attempt to help educate and guide magicians around the world.

Wayne, I look forward to hanging out with you and your lovely lass soon, and I can't wait to see you next summer!

Ben Train
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.

Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for all sorts of FREE VIRTUAL PROGRAMMING for magicians!
jclark
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Quote:
On 2007-09-01 21:42, James Hill wrote:
Hmm. I've been going over pretty much the whole T11 website, and found something that seemed peculiar to me.
Some people have said that W:H stole "Distortion" from Cyril's "moving pips thing". While I understand that Distortion is basically meant to be as a visual transposition instead of the chosen card revealing their's, did W:H make it before Cyril? On T11, it says...

"Wayne Houchin (Former Consultant to Criss Angel & Cyril)"

...I can't know for sure though.



I am reticent to post at the Café these days for reasons too numerous to list here, but I happen to be following up on my interest in seeing Theory 11 unfold online after visiting with Chris Kenner last night at a party, so I began browsing through the posts when this one caught my attention and enticed me to respond.

I am confident enough to categorically state that Wayne didn’t steal anything from Cyril and to publicly post speculation and conjecture of this nature is entirely inappropriate in my view; it is one of the (many) problems that has lead to a significant deterioration of camaraderie in our community—something many of us would like to see changed without hesitation or reservation.

Cyril was the first to popularize the moving pips through his television specials and his claim to them is as a performer who has direct permission to use the gaff by the original creator for such purposes; that is the extent of it as far as I am aware. And while I’d never presume to speak for either Wayne or Cyril without there direct permission, I am entirely confident there isn’t a conflict brewing here, which I why I am speaking up; it is best to let rumors like this die before they gain breath without justification and leave Wayne's integrity intact where it belongs.

Respectfully,

James
W:H
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Greetings!

Thanks Ben & James - I appreciate both of your comments. I addressed the Moving Pip issue on the Theory 11 forums - below is what I wrote. It should help to clear things up a bit. We'll be adding some of this information to the order page, but again ALL of it is discussed on the DVD & in the credits - proper crediting is of the upmost importance to us. Here is my post from T11:

Hey guys. I appreciate the discussion & search for truth & honesty. The history of the moving pip card is thoroughly explained on the DVD:

The Moving Pip card (the gimmick that makes this possible) has been around since at least the 1970's. It looks like it may have origniated from Japan. It was first done as a stage gag using a jumbo card. In 1980, Michael Ammar was the first (as far as we can tell) to have the moving pip card made with a NORMAL poker sized playing card. In 1981 he published his routine using the card "Visually Yours." Michael graciously contributed his routine to the Distortion project & it is taught & performed as a bonus - on the DVD.

So what is Distortion? "Distortion" is MY routine using the Moving Pip gimmick, just like "Visually Yours" is Michael Ammar's routine using the Moving Pip gimmick. I have worked out a transposition effect that creates quite an impact.

So, to sum it all up: The Moving Pip gimmick that you recieve with the DVD has been around for a long time. Michael Ammar was the first to have it made with a normal sized poker card. Michael's fantastic routine "Visually Yours" is taught on the DVD with HIS permission & blessing. "Distortion" is MY routine using the same gimmick.

I hope that clears some things up. Feel free to copy and paste this response, or link to it, if you see others asking the same questions. Thanks!

Also, just to be clear, I had nothing to do with Cyril's presentation & performance of the Moving Pip card. I helped to answer a few questions regarding Cyril's version of Sinful (which is a fantastic presentation if you haven't yet seen it). Cyril is an incredible performer & CREATOR in his own right & I want to make sure that none of his work is misattributed to myself.

So there you have it. I hope I answered your questions Smile

Wayne Houchin
http://www.theory11.com
W:H
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Also, in regards to the products on T11 - we stand by each and every one of them. If you are genuinely unhappy with a purchase... return it for a FULL refund. You can read our guarantee here: http://www.theory11.com/our_guarantee.php

Quality over Quantity.

Wayne Houchin
http://www.theory11.com
Hansen
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Isn't The Magic Café (and Genii Forum) an online community where one can ask questions of experienced and highly respected magicians (my PM box contains precious gems from the likes of Darwin Ortiz, Richard Osterlind, Andrew Wimhurst etc) and receive feedback and advice on our performances ('You Oughta Be in Pictures' forum)?

I have great respect and admiration for the likes of Wayne Houchin and the Buck Twins, but I'm afraid I don't see much "revolutionary" in the Theory 11 online magic store. Maybe time will change my opinion?

Some of the new tricks being sold on that site do look very impressive. For example, the effect 'Panic' is a visually stunning and wonderful piece of magic. I would have preferred less emphasis on the comercially cool 'street magic' side of things (the 'Guardian' cards would be truly beautiful if it wasn't for all those gratuitous, arbitrary, but highly predictable 'nuts and bolts'. I'm afraid I'll pass). Of course, that is just my personal preference.

I guess, in a business sense, that is where the big money is in magic nowadays? A world where every young kid performs (and often completely makes a hash of) the same collection of tricks (eg. Stigmata, Sinful etc -- even though these tricks are truly strong, impressive magic) and mirrors David Blaine's performing character appears to be the direction the magic business is taking...

But I do like some of the statements and goals being put forward by a few of the Theory 11 guys (Dan White and Wayne Houchin especially). Treating magic as a venerable art and striving to continuously improve and develop it is very wise and exciting approach. And this message is very much needed by young and impressionable magicians (of which there seems to be a large and ever growing supply, credit cards in hand).

Time will tell whether Theory 11 is successful at fulfilling its lofty goals (I truly hope they do succeed), or whether it is simply an over-hyped, slightly improved Ellusionist clone. Theory 11 is obviously run by some business savvy individuals (which is a compliment -- Why would you run a business without business savvy?). Let's hope the ART of magic shines through.

Jason
James Hill
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Thank you very much for the clarification James and Wayne. I did not realize that the gimmick originiated so long ago. I was not personally trying to accuse either Wayne or Cyril, but, had a question, and couldn't really find a clear answer. I appreciate the time for your responses, and now feel completely confident in my purchase of Distortion.
Bijlogg
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The site is nice, but I see nothing new.

As Bill said, only you can improve your own magic.

Tom
W:H
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Quote:
On 2007-09-02 16:03, Hansen wrote:

Time will tell whether Theory 11 is successful at fulfilling its lofty goals (I truly hope they do succeed), or whether it is simply an over-hyped, slightly improved Ellusionist clone. Theory 11 is obviously run by some business savvy individuals (which is a compliment -- Why would you run a business without business savvy?). Let's hope the ART of magic shines through.

Jason


Agreed. Our site is NOT what is revolutionary - our vison & goals as it relates to the online community & the advancement of our art - is. Jason is absolutely right - only time will tell. We have so much planned that we will be rolling out over the next few months - and I am not talking about products. Our passion is strong and our objectives clear... Only time will tell.

Wayne Houchin
http://www.theory11.com
gdw
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Quote:
On 2007-09-02 16:10, Bijlogg wrote:
The site is nice, but I see nothing new.

As Bill said, only you can improve your own magic.

Tom


True, but I believe, imho, that too many people are being influenced by stores and thinking that is tainting magic as a whole. I believe part of the intentions of theory 11 is to use the appeal of many of those stores out there to bring people in, but at the same time try to help influence them and their magic steering it away from a lot that is out there now.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

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Nueffl
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For me this is simply "yet another (commercial) magic website". I don't see any real "unique selling propositions" there. If I want feedback, I can post my video on YouTube too. There I receive feedback not only from magicians (99,9% of all of visitors of Theory11.com) but also from laymen...
Best Wishes, Nueffl
Jonathan Townsend
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Hey, rock and roll did okay when folks started wearing lipstick and hairgel.
Maybe magic will get a boost from eye makeup.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Hansen
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I truly wish you the best of luck, Wayne. I have a sneaking suspicion that you will succeed. With your wonderful creativity and respect for the traditions and art of magic, I feel the magic community has much to look forward to.

Theory 11 is an exciting venture. I'm sure, over time, it will contribute much to our beautiful art.
W:H
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Quote:
On 2007-09-02 17:28, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Hey, rock and roll did okay when folks started wearing lipstick and hairgel.
Maybe magic will get a boost from eye makeup.


That made me smile! It's odd, since I was in 6th grade, people have asked me if I wear eye makeup... The truth is I don't, I haven't, I never have. I natrually have dark eyes - that look even darker on camera! Oh well - maybe I should just roll with it & market my own brand of eye makeup...

Wayne Houchin
http://www.theory11.com
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