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luvisi Special user 601 Posts 
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...and yes, Erdnase was way, way ahead of the game regarding the bottom deal... and a whole bunch of other things too.
For gambling moves, I highly recommend that you check out the move descriptions in The Sharper Detected and Exposed (available for free from The Learned Pig Project) and Sharps and Flats (available for free from The Internet Archive) to get a feel for the context in which Erdnase was writing. For magic moves, check out Modern Magic and More Magic (both available for free from The Learned Pig Project), and Sachs' Sleight of Hand. There are others, but those are fairly representative of the time, and easy to get a hold of. Erdnase wrote with a level of detail and clarity that was revolutionary at the time, and in my opinion is still better than the average for more recent works. Andru
Andru Luvisi
http://www.practicenotincluded.com/ |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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I wasn't able to add this to my post above, but I think the gist of the grip and the finger positions is summed up in the following sentence;
"The deck is held in position principally by the corners, between the second finger and the palm below base of thumb."
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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luvisi Special user 601 Posts
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Vandy:
If that kind of vagueness calls into question whether Erdnase could really do the bottom deal, then I think we have more than enough vagueness to question whether there was anyone before 1900 who could do a pass or a bottom change or a top palm or pretty much any other card move. Andru
Andru Luvisi
http://www.practicenotincluded.com/ |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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Then draw back the third finger, which action is concealed by the overhanging card, until the tip rests against the edge of the bottom card. (See Fig. 23.) Press up and slightly inwards against that card and push it out, “
-Erdnase- On first reading that and trying it, I thought, easy for you to say! Until someone showed it me I thought it was nonsense. I don't think there is anything wrong with the desription now I can do it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-07-28 11:55, luvisi wrote: I'm with you brother. Like I said, to me that's getting into minutia. It seems to be an issue for "some people" as I stated. To me it's seems clear enough to work from.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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luvisi Special user 601 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-07-28 11:53, Vandy Grift wrote: I couldn't agree more. How's this bit from The Amateur Magician's Handbook for a vague description of the grip? Quote:
Essentially you are holding the deck by the index corners between the tip of your second finger and the heel of your hand. If you do that, you will get the correct hold automatically. I think it's much easier to publish a previously existing technique without having mastered it than it is to publish a new one. For example, it seems far more likely that Henry Hay (The Amateur Magician's Handbook), William Turner (The Card Wizard, republished as How to do Tricks With Cards), Jack Merlin (...and a pack of cards), or Walter Gibson (The Complete Illustrated Book of Card Magic), couldn't deal bottoms themselves, since they were able to mostly copy an already workable technique from Erdnase. Andru
Andru Luvisi
http://www.practicenotincluded.com/ |
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luvisi Special user 601 Posts
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Tommy:
It's funny how different backgrounds can lead to different perspectives. I first tried to learn to deal bottoms from Tarbell 2, and had a very difficult time of it. When I read Erdnase, it was like a breath of fresh air. I read every word, I did what it said, and the move kind of worked. Andru
Andru Luvisi
http://www.practicenotincluded.com/ |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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Quote:
I agree. To me there is nothing in the descripton or the illustrations that leads me to believe that he couldn't do the deal. Any minor discrepencies are just that, minor. I don't think you need anything more than what is written to learn to deal bottoms with his method. Yes, as Tommy said it may seem impossible until you see someone do it, but it is possible and I think the description is sufficent.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts
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Hi Andru,
I have a horrible feeling we will be rehearsing the arguments Wesley James has had over the years on this precise point. Not a bad thing really just as long as I don't come off sounding like Simon!! I am familiar with the Erdnase text but I am not a scolar of the work which I suspect you are. Wesley James is taking issue with a particular interpretation of the instructions that could lead a reader to conclude the second finger comes under the deck, around the corner and rests on the long side of the deck nearest to the corner. This is the view he is countering. He believes the Erdnase description of where the fingers are is correct but not how they get there. More than this I cannot say without exposing Mr James idea, something that importantly belongs to the DVD set. Regards, Paul H |
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luvisi Special user 601 Posts
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Paul: No worries. Even if you did come off sounding like Simon, I wouldn't think either of you were a bad person just because I disagree with you about a card move.
Andru
Andru Luvisi
http://www.practicenotincluded.com/ |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts
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Despite what Paul has said in trying to explain the differences in the positions of Wesley and Simon, I believe he agrees with everyone on this thread so far that believes Erdnase could do the thing. Or at least doesn't see anything in the descriptions that would lead to him believe that Erdnase couldn't do it.
Posted: Jul 28, 2007 1:00pm There is one thing that should be mentioned, in fairness to Simon Lovell. I can't say for certain that he has reached the conclusion that Erdnase couldn't bottom deal purely from Erdnases write up of the deal in the book. It's possible he has additional reasons to believe that. I don't know for sure.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts
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Hi Vandy,
You are right. Erdnase knew too much about the deal and its problems not to be a proficient exponent himself. With regard to Simon Lovell, I think he deliberately took an opposing view as a counterpoint to Wesley James more or less forcing an in depth discussion of the salient issues....and for theatrical effect of course. I think the strategy was highly effective in terms of the discussion. Regards, Paul H |
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magician8 Veteran user 383 Posts
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I thik erdnase could definetly bottom deal,by carefully following his instructions in the book every cardman can bottom deal, if he couldn't, Why not read his own book?
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Furniture Elite user London 415 Posts
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Simon Lovell and Wesley James can't bottom deals. I am sorry but there is much movement in their bottom deal.
I they have read carefully Erdnase they probably would have learned something. The technique is very well described and can help you to have a more effective bottom deal |
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h2o Veteran user 305 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-10-11 13:12, Furniture wrote: Let's rather say that they didn't perfected the Erdnase bottom deal... I've read somewhere that Wesley James has a very talented bottom deal using his little finger to buckle the bottom card. If Erdnase ever used the bottom deal in a real money game? I think nobody will ever have a definitive proof of it, yes or no. Does the Erdnase bottom deal could ever fly in a real money game? I would think so, as I think that anybody can do whatever bottom deal (even the dirtiest one) during a money game, and get along with it, all it depends is the kind of game you're playing in, your nerves, and if the other players do care or no of what you're doing....and most of the time, usual players once they get their cards, they just don't give a s... about how you deal yours... Those kind of discussions about the effectiveness of the Erdnase grips and deals will always be a big debate among card theoreticians... |
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Furniture Elite user London 415 Posts
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Hi H2O,
I agree with you, let's say they have not perfected the Erdnase bottom deal but in spite of that they have released a DVD where they try to explain the techniques from the book.  |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts
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I might be wrong on this but who cares...I believe that Erdnase did do the bottom deal. Why? Because the artist who drew Erdnase's handling drew his knuckle buckling (See Fig. 22 and 23) in order to push out the bottom card and since there is basically only two types of bottom deal the strike and the push-out, this evidence conclusively show that either the artist knew how to bottom deal or Erdnase....one of the two knew how. Draw your own conclusion.
Respectfully, Doc |
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Posted: Jul 28, 2007 03:49 pm 
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