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LauraCalder
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I don't really buy into NLP (as one bon viveur says: NLP is both good and original, but the parts that are good aren't original and the parts that are original aren't good). However, despite that caveat, I find that embedded commands really work quite nicely if done right.

Recently I've been experimenting with phonological ambiguities. But the results are mixed. The written material on this particular subject is incredibly light, I think the User's Manual for the Brain has about a paragraph on it. So I have a few questions, for those of you who know about these things:

(1) Are you meant to choose an ambiguity that isn't blatant, or is it a case of the more blatant and jagged the better as long as you're talking too quickly for the conscious mind to notice?

(2) Should the ambiguity be marked out in some way, like an embedded command?

(3) Often when using phonological ambiguities, my successes have happened when the participant suddenly jolts their head in a sort of double-take. Now I am forced to rethink that. Is it, in fact, a bad sign, i.e. that their conscious mind has picked up on the ambiguity?

Any input will be much appreciated.
mindpunisher
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No one strategy or technique is meant to be isolated. That would be like trying to win a boxing match with nothing but an uppercut. With no other choices of punch or timing or body movements footwork or spacial awareness.

The idea is that because it is ambiguious both suggestions go in even if they become conscious of the ambiguity. After all they don't know you meant it.

I think there are much better strategies than ambiguity though. Although an exagerated demo make for a good piece of mentalism dressing.

NLP itself is just a bunch of powerful tools sold within a framework akin to multi level marketing. Powerful as they may be most people who go down the NLP route don't know how to use them to get real results. They get caught up in the marketing funnel and end selling more useless certifications..
LauraCalder
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If I was operating in a personal capacity I don't think I'd just use one technique in isolation.

I know that NLP can make excellent fake explanations for crafty tricks, but I was just thinking of how ambiguities and commands alone could be used in a close-up performance to influence a decision a spectator had no personal involvement in. I feel like I'm risking turning this into a "what benefits does NLP offer magic" thread.
mindpunisher
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I would use it in another way.

Instead of using it directly in effects I would use it to structure presentations and influence the "experience" of the audience rather than achieve the effect.

I would use trickery to produce what you suggest but would tructure it in a way as to give it more of a psychological impact.

I would use language and suggestion to facilitate the impact not the effect. If that makes sense?
LauraCalder
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I see what you mean, mindpunisher.

The author of Pure Effect talks about how when he performs Out of This World he anchors a feeling of childlike wonder to the cards being turned over. This is a good use of these techniques. However, further on in the book, in the Invisible Deal, the author actually utilises phonological ambiguities as part of the method of a rather interesting effect.

Have you tried using it this way? It seems like this is unexplored.

(ps. I didn't realise I was going to start talking about magic, sorry this should have been posted in Penny For Thoughts)
mindpunisher
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Derren as I remember used to do some card forces using these techniques. Then he would "expose" them. He also rubbished NLP in that book which I thought was really clever.

Because in actual fact he uses NLP in his performances but not where you expect it

For the card force you mention for example is a technique known as framing...

By framing up front how he does something your perception is set up to filter everything after through the frame.

One of the reasons he caused so much confusion amoung magicians and mentalists when he first started..
rinpoche
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I agree with everything people have posted here.

I would add that ambiguities, phonological and sytactical, both trigger transderivational search. That is, some unconscious part of you will be rooting around to make meaning from something for some time, even after you consciously have a meaning.

Think of a time where someone told you a joke or a story and you didn't really get it at that time. Some time later the right neurons connected and you got that "ah ha!" experience. Your unconscious was still processing, sometimes for days.

It's the same kind of expereince when you are desperately trying to remember a name, and dayd later it just pops into your head.

OK, so some theories of mind have it that there are several layers of filtering that you have to get through before the unconscious mind will accept a suggestion you give it. For lack of better terms there's the conscious mind and the preconscious mind. The conscious mind may reject a suggestion, and so may teh preconscious.

If you overwhelm the conscious and preconscious filters, just about any suggestion will drop in and affect behavior. Under this model of mind, this is how confusion techniques work.

Ambiguous language tends to overload the preconscious filters, and makes trance more likely.

It's not one tool that I'd use on its own, but certainly could be part of the whole.

The mind also tends to "try things on for size" in order to make sense of them - embedded commands work this way. So you can use ambiguity to drop in suggestions as well and some part of the mind will respond.
Eddini_81976
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Mind Punisher with framing (I only know from 1-10, 10 being expert like a 4 in NLP) is that the "3 of Diamonds" trick? I wrote about even on NLP boards because when it is raining outside CLEARLY and people say it's not, it really angers me. I agree and if allowed could show you POSITIVE proof (although yes he DOES give fake NLP Explanations) that YES he DOES use NLP as much as he say it's rubbish. I get the 3 of diamonds trick 70% of the time with my ever ready B.W. on hand. I belong to the BEST it's like this site but it's on NLP called REALLY JOIN, http://www.nlpweekly.com. It's run by a C.Ht. with a Master Practitioner in NLP. It has a archive over 500 articles with like 20 free e-books, free lessons, Milton Erickson, anyway thay have like 45,000 members I think. Lots are Magicians, Mentalist and Hypnotist as well as being trained in NLP. They have a strictly Derren Brown forum. Look people have written here saying the REAL asecret is Derren Brown and his Showmanship, and NOT to worry much on methods. I agree 100%, but I still can't help being upset when people are like "All he uses is Classical Magician, Mentalism Techniques", when like if I could I could show you like 4 youtube videos, where you's have to be dumb to say he never uses NLP. Again it is him, and his showmanship that the secret. With that said. Watch him using awesome anchoring, and swish pattern here. He makes a lady think her red card is black. YES this can happen. The brain is very amazing...enjoy.

Laura, for real enjoy http://www.nlpweekly.com. I have like 3 on my favorites, and this is like #1, and will teach for free the basics, Laura.

Oh yes here is a Derren Brown Interview, THEN the youtube link. Here you can learn how to pick up the opposite sex which since having a G/F I don't need interesting nonetheless.


Interview

http://www.derrenbrowninfo.co.uk/loaded_interview.php


Youtube Derren Brown ... Anchoring, plus Swish Patterns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr-QtNE9k84
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
LauraCalder
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Far be it from me to speak for someone else, but I think what Mindpusher means when he talks about framing is that, although the 3D force is obviously done by pure suggestion, the average punter is going to explain every other effect performed after that through the frame of pure suggestion rather than look for explanations through other, more mechanical methods.


Eddini, I shall check out nlpweekly. However I notice it is full of therapists, and not to stereotype, but I lived with a few psych students at university and they creeped me out with their need to put a label on everyone.
mindpunisher
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Derren Brown Uses NLP.

He uses the handshake induction, he uses NLP termanology in his explanations.

Part of the reason they are used in NLP is because of the way in which these words these inductions look good. They "frame" NLP as being desirable and interesting and
worth pursuiing at high prices to learn.

Big part of NLP is showmanship. Derren copies or "models" Richard Bandler in some of his presentations that's why they were so successful. Becuae these original NLP presentations were partly designed to mesmerise potential students..

NLP is just a product that's been designed to be highly marketable. And from that point of view it has been a huge success.

Therefore Derren IS using NLP. And should be grateful since it has been a huge part of his success.
Eddini_81976
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Quote:
On 2007-09-01 07:48, LauraCalder wrote:
Far be it from me to speak for someone else, but I think what Mindpusher means when he talks about framing is that, although the 3D force is obviously done by pure suggestion, the average punter is going to explain every other effect performed after that through the frame of pure suggestion rather than look for explanations through other, more mechanical methods.


Eddini, I shall check out nlpweekly. However I notice it is full of therapists, and not to stereotype, but I lived with a few psych students at university and they creeped me out with their need to put a label on everyone.


Laura this is all the FREE stuff NOT to mention their awesome forum with 10 subforums, you get.....

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Laura for real, really, REALLY look at all that FREE stuff. Look at YOUR NLP Pontential. Ahhhh do you see where it says Mind-Reading...huh? Laura to be honest and PLEASE don't be offended NOT joining I honestly, HONESTLY would wonder from a Pschological Standpoint if you were "Fully Okay". Look no NO judgements as I'm thinned - skinned and EXTREMELY especially being a male, Sensitive. I grew up with Therapist. I LOVE Psychiatry, Pychology, and the use of Psychiatric Medicines. (Yes they are for real, and DO HELP. Myseld being Bipolar Type II (Manic Depressive was what they USE to call it), and Major Panic Attack Disorder. It genetic runs in my family. I own the Diagnostical Statistical Manual (of Mental Disorders). It has like all 300 Mental Disorders, symptoms all you need to know. I'
ve been hosptalized before and I'd study people hon, and knowing what I know (I've even had PSYCHIATRIST the "Top Dog in that system", say "Ed You seem to know a lot about this the diffeteny illnesses symptomoly I have wondered why in the heck you have NEVER gotten into this feild. You clearly have the understanding, patience and you like helping". I was like Dr. ****** are you serious you know I've been hospitalized a few times who in the HELL would hire me. He was like "EXACTLY unlike most of you you have LITERALLY been in the patients shoes and WILL know their perspective." I have a DSM Casebook, three actually, books on antidepressany...etc. I'm good at guessing someone's diagnosis(es). Thanks, Ed, (Eddini) C.H.
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
mindpunisher
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Eddini

I don't mean to be flippant. But don't you think part of your problems stem from reading so many psychiatric handbooks and "learning" how to be a patient?

From an NLP stand point that is what they would suggest. Your whole identity is based upon psychiatric labels and beliefs such as your situation is hereditary.

Is it not possible that you just modelled the behaviour of family members swallowed the belief that its to be expected, got on the psychatric route and re-inforced it.

If that's the case its no wonder you are experiencing problems.

And that's how most good NLPers would see it.
LauraCalder
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Hmm, seeing as this thread is going a little off tack, I invite anyone who uses ambiguities in the same way as the 'triangle' is used in the later pages of PS2 to PM me. I've been using these lately to a comfortable level, and would be interested in discussing the topic with anyone who has similar experience as I am yet to find anyone.

But back to the topic at hand. Eddini, my comment about weird psychology students wasn't meant to be taken too seriously. I know nothing of what they do or therapy in general, but I am reminded of playing many late night games of scrabble with them (yes, I'm the life of the party) all of which, being terrible at the game but not on account of having a poor vocabulary, I lost. Then later on, when I failed to do the washing up or something similar, I was often accused of "sublimating" my anger at losing. That gets pretty annoying after a while. Also they used to practise a skill called "active listening" during normal conversations. If anyone has ever heard of "active listening" and can imagine it being used in a normal conversation you'll know how irritating that can be too.

I'm sure they weren't representative of all psychologically inclined people, but they definitely gained a feeling of smug superiority by putting innocent folks under the microscope. Which isn't nice.
mindpunisher
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They are probably true of most novice psychologists/therapists who are learning.

Once they get out into the real world and find that they can't get a job and end up selling popcorn in a cinema the smugness will go..
Eddini_81976
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Quote:
On 2007-09-01 11:30, mindpunisher wrote:
Eddini

I don't mean to be flippant. But don't you think part of your problems stem from reading so many psychiatric handbooks and "learning" how to be a patient?

From an NLP stand point that is what they would suggest. Your whole identity is based upon psychiatric labels and beliefs such as your situation is hereditary.

Is it not possible that you just modelled the behaviour of family members swallowed the belief that its to be expected, got on the psychatric route and re-inforced it.

If that's the case its no wonder you are experiencing problems.

And that's how most good NLPers would see it.


Interesting, I didn't know they'd see it like that, THOUGH I disagree, thanks, My Hypnotherapist is a (Yes, I'm sorry BUT I did fing the other groups teachers she taught from), is Lisenced in N.H. & Mass, and to keep her Liscences she has to do every year so many hours of training. I say that as I listed this is the other group and their like "Holy s*it, Ed that usually means they feel lacking to keep joining places, getting loads of plaques". I said no being Liscenced she is REQUIRED to expand her learning and is looking to join even more associations...etc. ACTUALLY she has told me you can have all the degrees / certificates / diplomas, BUT without human understanding and EMPATHY they are WORETHLESS. While as she is mentoring me she said learning all you can from different places is great. I'll just copy & paste her organizations HERE...Yes there is a reason.

(M.S.W., A.C.S.W., B.C.D., D.C.S.W......

Clinical Hypnotherapist
Psychiatric Social Worker
Marriage & Family Counselor
Licenced Hypnotherapist in N.H. &&&& Mass, U,S.A.
Master NLP Practitioner
Certified in Ericksonian Hypnosis (Specialty)

Here is in these organizations

Heart-Centered Hypnotherapy Taught by Diance Zimmeroff
International Hypnosis Federation
Another teacher was Reid Wilson.

National Guild Of Hypnosis
International Medical and Dental Hypnotherapy Association
Milton Erickson Foundation
National Board Of Clinical Hypnosis
American Society of Clinical Hypnotherapist (A.S.C.H.)

Other Certificates / Associations OTHER Than Hypnosis

Association of Behavioral Therapist
Certified In Drug & Alcohol Counseling
Certified Marriage & Family Couseling.

Anyway even though she does "Mainly Clinical Hypnotherapy", some
clients she just uses "Talk Therapy", and Counsels even young kids.
She's very intelligent. One College she went too was Tufts I know.
She's also TAUGHT Hypnosis in Colleges though not a Teacher
(Technically, as she's teaching me as well as being my
Hypnotherapist), nor a C.I. Certified Instructor. We mesh very good.
The BEST Therapist I've EVER had and ever since like 7 I've seen
LOTS of Therapists. Anyone here see a Hypnotherapist. Are they good.
What are their Qualifications? Just remember my Hypnotherapist has
told me while yes plaques diploma's and are okay, if you don't have
EMPATHY all that is iseless, She thinks I have a GIFT at it.)

Now Mind punisher what do you think of those groups one A.S.C.H. one that Milton started ONLY Master's PhD's, and MD's can join. Okay you see where it says she's a MASTER Practitioner of NLP right? Well she has never ever had that approach with me. Ahh Nurture vs. Nature. I think like MOST people it's BOTH, not one or the other.

No Mindpunisher, EVERY, EVERY Therapist Psychiatrist, Psychiatric Hospital (literally my first time I was 18, the last time my LONGEST out was 12/05, but literally 41 hospitalizations)...PRAISE JESUS'S HOLY NAME, has encouraged me read about my illness. People, and no M.P. I'm not saying you ONLY because it's a Mental Disorder do not give it the seriousness as they should. Though Mental Illness is THANK GOD being more excepted M.P. I'm thinking if I had Cancer (which took my Dad LITERALLY the morning of his 51st B-day I saw him last called 911, on 8-9-94, R.I.P. Robert...Dad) you wouldn't of no sorry not you (NLPer's say they treat it like this) wouldn't say stop reading and learning about your illness. You should ALWAYS, always understand and know thyself of know our Lord Our God as well. Those with Cancer are always I'mn guessing probably doing what I'm saying. Yes I know one is physical actually Bipolar is too but yes it's symptomology is more of a emotional nature. NOT one is worse than the other. If you say yes you're discriminating the one you think is less severe. TRUTH, and I know from 6 serious times of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE both are at risk of DEATH. Awesome Response M.P., Ed, Eddie Who Loo ? Me you M.Fer....lol, (Eddini) C.H.
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
mindpunisher
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Ed look how qualified you are at reinforcing your problem..

I am not taking your condition flippantly. And I personally wouldn't work with someone like you that has your history its beyond my skill.

But at same time when you focus on something you get better at it. that's a basic fact.

You seem to be really focused on being the labels these Psychiatrists keep giving you.

I think the worst communicaters tend to be PHds and MDs they usually make the worst hypnotists in my experience...Because they are already programmed to see the world through medical models and don't devote the time needed to develop the skills required for excellence in hypnosis. Yet their implied authority due to their medical training makes them very arrogant. (at least in the UK)
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