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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
An elephant can eat apples and oranges. The elephant that has eaten poker seems to be eating magic. I know what this elephant is but it ain’t easy to describe:
Once upon time not long ago in poker it was common to hear the cry: DON’T EDUCATE THEM! The cry went up when anyone gave a tip on poker, no matter how small the tip. Gone are the days when that cry was heard throughout the land of poker. Today poker players have gone tipping crazy, with books, DVDs, Internet, TV, Mags , away from the table and at the table and so on. The ultimate goal of the poker players today is not winning money playing poker as used to be, that is now just a means to an end, the end now is to become famous and make money though educating the suckers and advertising and TV commentary and so on. What we have today in poker is not pro poker players looking for suckers to play and fool but pro poker players looking for suckers to come into the to game who they can sell an education to. Magic seems to have gone or is going the same way. It would not surprise me to see magic on TV where magicians sat around a table fooling each other, while pocket cams showed the TV audience, but not the magicians there, how the tricks were being done. Which sounds unlikely but look what happened to poker. I say if you want to perform magic DON’T EDUCATE THEM!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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enginemagic Special user Bluffton Indiana 597 Posts |
New things to show them will be interesting ,I havnt seen the few machine secrets I seen on the internet or in books.I have a couple I created from old machinery ,like the system I took to our local IBM meeting.It wasnt too fooling but a different twist on a simple magical theme.Some farmers at the tractor shows come up with some magical looking props that amazes the public. Those I really relate to since I have been around them for years ,and they try to keep the secrets to themselvs.Like the mystery of the 2 wheel car a man had the wheels were side by side but it didn't tip foward or backward,his gimick was well hidden though.This would make a cool clown car for parades.
theres a lot to learn out there,many interesting subjects,and hobbies to enjoy
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Drew Manning Special user Dallas, Texas 913 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-09 09:11, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Well, when it comes to illusions, the typical lay audinece suspends thier disbelief to be entertained, but they all know that none of us can fly, vanish or reassemble a human body. They know the box did it, they just may not know how. Just because a lay person knows how one illusion or trick may be done, doesn't mean that they make the connection between an effect that looks different but uses a similar method. Think about the TT for a minute. A lot of people know about it, butif we use is in a skillful way, even those who know about it don't make the connection. As far as close up magic goes, people know it's done with sleight of hand, so even if they don't know that a DL was the tool used, they know you did something, they just don't know exactly what that something was. How many times have you executed a routine perfectly, left the spectators amazed only to have one of them say "it's all just sleight of hand". We all know that, and it's not as easy as they spectator may want to make it seem, but they know there is some kind of sly method used.
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime, When you have a good martini time! -The Reverend Horton Heat |
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
True specs know that sleight of had is used for a magical trick(cards,coins etc.). But it is how well the slieght of hand is performed and the presentation of the effect that awes the spectators.
I know I haven't said anything earth shattering here.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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Drew Manning Special user Dallas, Texas 913 Posts |
Edh, that is what I was getting at. The same applies to large scale illusions.
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime, When you have a good martini time! -The Reverend Horton Heat |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I am only awe struck when I can not see any sleight of hand or trick or method. If I want see great skill with hands then I watch jugglers who out skill magicians any day.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-09 18:33, edh wrote: Correct, nor cogent. If they have a clue or feeling that you are hiding stuff in your hands or secretly moving stuff around they are watching you juggle. And that's not magic. In a way it's also exposure and ruins the tricks for someone more talented who might have floored them by doing the material well enough for them to enjoy the intended magic. grumble grumble go take up juggling if you want to impress them with skill grumble grumble. ;) Posted: Aug 9, 2007 8:49pm PS when they watch most illusions they know for sure its a fake show given the strange fake looking props and tricky boxes. Safe to watch as dance numbers but not really so magical most of the time IMHO
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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BlackShadow Special user London UK 666 Posts |
Slightly off topic, but you seem to be saying once they know how she zigs and zags it wouldn't be amazing. But then it wasn't amazing anyway, because of the fake looking tricky box.
In my view the entertainment from these items comes from the costumes, the colours, and the acting of the performers. Just as in the world of sleight of hand, in the world of illusions so there are many different ways of accomplishing similar effects. Just because you know the gist of one particular method, it doesn't follow you know what is being done before your eyes. The entertainment for me would still be there, if the performance was good. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Harbin's trick is amazing because it was done live, closeup, with a volunteer and they served as comittee for the audience.
If you know a trick is sleight of hand... the damage is done already so you are watching juggling. The Asrah form example is probably the strongest of the lot. Imagine that trick done with a clear table and a form painted in day-glow colors in full light and no sparkly background. Amazing... no.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Drew Manning Special user Dallas, Texas 913 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-09 20:49, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Does the same not hold true for close up then? People know you can't melt two coins together in your hand or truly restore a torn up card. They still know it's sleight of hand. I think however that doing the effect well technically might eliminate the spec's thought that the coin was p**med off using a re***tion move, even though that was indeed the method. It still comes down to them knowing that some type of sleights were employed, just not knowing when, where and how.
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime, When you have a good martini time! -The Reverend Horton Heat |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-10 13:53, Drew Manning wrote:... That depends entirely upon how well the performer eschews incongruent behavior, awkward actions and questionable props which are not subject to examination.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
JT, what I and I believe what Drew are saying is the specs. know sleight of hand is involved when doing coin and card tricks. BUT, if done well along with good presentation they will not have a clue as to when or where the sleight occurred. Hopefully the construction of the effect will have cancelled out the possibilities of where the sleight might have occurred.
I hope that was clear. I sometimes can't write what I'm thinking clearly. I believe Drew, myself and you are all saying the same thing.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Ed, folks,
If they KNOW, you've failed. If they merely want to believe... you are leaving them an out and that's okay. IMHO you can offer them other options including simply not caring HOW you do stuff and just enjoying what's (apparently) happening.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Drew Manning Special user Dallas, Texas 913 Posts |
Quote:
I believe Drew, myself and you are all saying the same thing. Yes! I am in agreement with what you are saying. Quote:
If they KNOW, you've failed. I don't see how you can say that. IF they know WHERE and HOW then perhaps, but simply saying that if the spec knows you're using sleight of hand you've failed is a little off IMO. Specs know we can't without some form of trickery execute our miracles. They KNOW before we even get started. The true magic lies in making it look perfectly natural so that the spectators concentrate on the over all effect and not why you made an odd gesture or comment that seemed out of place etc.
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime, When you have a good martini time! -The Reverend Horton Heat |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
If they know STOP
Notice the presupposition. Something is required for them to know instead of suspect or believe. What is the distinction between "to suspect" and "to know" ?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Drew Manning Special user Dallas, Texas 913 Posts |
I looked up the word magician at dictionary.com and here's what I found:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source ma·gi·cian /məˈdʒɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muh-jish-uhn] –noun 1. an entertainer who is skilled in producing illusion by sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; conjurer. 2. a person who is skilled in magic; sorcerer. The very definition of magician involves sleight of hand. So by your assertions, you're telling me that every person who has ever watched you do anything at all has believed from the on set that you were a god and that you were truly creating miracales and not employing any type of sleights? Spectators KNOW by the very definition that a magican employs sleights to get the job done. You can execute the sleights flawlessly so that the specs have no clue what you did or how you did it, but in their mind, it gets chalked up to sleights. This will even happen if it's a self working trick.
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime, When you have a good martini time! -The Reverend Horton Heat |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
There are different kinds of "know." The magician seeks to create the "conviction" of magic in the same way that the ventriloquist seeks to create the "conviction" that his dummy is real. A spectator can "know" that the dummy isn't real, but still keep talking to the dummy instead of the ventriloquist. There have been vent dummies shot for saying insulting things to the wrong guy.
When a magician "proves" that there is no sleight of hand, no possible method for the magic to happen, the spectator knows that the proof is somehow flawed. But he can not find the error, and when the "conviction" that magic is real is established by the acting and scripting of the performer, the spectator can not escape the feeling of being "trapped" in an alternating reality. He is on the horns of the dilemma: "There is no such thing as magic/There is no other possible explanation" This dilemma can not be resolved deductively. It can only be allowed to fade, temporarily dispersed with laughter--somehow put on a back burner of the brain. But it is a little burr under the saddle of the brain. Everytime the subject of magic is raised, the brain kicks at this little burr. The feeling of cognitive dissonance arises whenever the brain faces such incompatible beliefs. This creates an unforgettable memory, one that grows with time. It is like a piece of sand that the oyster is forced to make into a pearl. It becomes a fount of creative and fantastic thought. This is the gift we give to people. When people are forced into such a straightjacket of thought, a totally logical conundrum, they know nothing for certain. Anyone who has ever really fooled 'em hard--made real magic--knows this. The spectators don't tell you it isn't possible. They beg you to tell them it isn't real. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-15 16:23, Drew Manning wrote: Folks need better dictionaries. Some don't even help the student distinguish between "correct", "right" and "true". The connection between "magician" and "sleight of hand" is about as close as between the words "magic" and "trick". We can work on the "how do you know what it is you claim to believe" stuff after words. No sense in begging the horse to eat entire cart just to get some gas for now.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
"...begging the horse to eat the cart..."? LOL
Richard Boone, on the old tv show Paladin, would often get knocked down by the stunt men he was "fighting." Boone: "What did you do that for?" Stuntman: "Sorry. I thought you were going to hit me." What did the stuntman "know?" I can "know" that the old actor crying and carrying on about Hecuba is just in make-believe. He has never even met Hecuba. "What is Hecuba to him?" But when I start to tear up as I am listening to his tale of woe, what do I "know" then? Have you never been scared by a ghost story that you "knew" wasn't even possible--one that is completely ridiculous and preposterous. What did you "know" about the possible then? |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
You may not believe in ghosts, but if you saw one, you would. The ghost that you saw would not have to be a real ghost. If it appeared to be a real ghost, what else could you believe. No matter how impossible you thought it was. The thing is we really don’t know what is impossible.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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