I am keeping a list with Santa.

"Ethical" to go into a restaurant and undercut an established magician? Oh lord.

If he doesn't need the money, how is he doing a disservice to himself?


That's probably true, but hardly a good analogy. A restaurant needs a chef; it doesn't need a magician. The magician constantly interacts with the customers; the chef rarely does.


That would be my intention. I'm not certain that it's the intention of every restaurant magician. I am certain that it's not my place (nor yours, nor anyone else's) to insist that it be the intention of every restaurant magician.


You're probably right. Again, is it our place to say they're not allowed to do that? I think not.


While you're correct that they should, is it equally correct that they must? Again, I think not. (Restaurant owners and managers are allowed to act stupidly, just like the rest of us.)


I've seen workers in all fields - entertainers, engineers, police officers, project managers, you-name-it - who are taking work away from others who might do a better job. Should any of them willingly hand over their job to someone else simply because that someone-else is better? Maybe they should, but most won't. It it their responsibility to do so? No. That's the responsibility of their employer.


I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you ask if it would be all right? I certainly wouldn't enjoy it. But I could understand the economics of it. If I'm too expensive for my client I've chosen the wrong client. That's my fault, not someone else's.


Precisely. You've gotten back to exactly my point: if price is the only thing that matters and someone else is cheaper they'll get the work. That's capitalism.

Recently I was reading the annual report of a local real estate investment trust (REIT). From that report I learned that last Summer they started using a product similar to one my company has recently developed and begun to market. Ours is less expensive and, arguably, better. Is it unethical for me to go to this REIT and attempt to get them to buy my product instead of my competitor's?

How, exactly, is that different from your sentence, quoted above?

Note, when you're keeping track, that I don't condone bad-mouthing the competition.

I spent over 20 years as a traffic manager. One of my jobs is to select forwarders and brokers etc, these are the companies that act as agents when moving freight or clearing customs and all that good stuff. Periodically, usually every year and a half, I would do a Request For Quotes or RFQ. The forwarders who had shown an interest in doing business were invited to participate in this quoting and I would pick the one that best suited our needs taking into consideration cost as well, service was more important than price to us. If you win the bid you get the business.

During the period between RFQs I would get people walking in from forwarders and they would tell me that they were better than everyone else and that they could do it cheaper. Cheaper ain't better and I, being aware of this, am not fool enough to let that be the determining factor. I also did not want to be known as a flake who backs out on agreements because of someone backdooring their way into the business. Was it legal what they were doing? Yes. Was it ethical? It was their job as they were in sales so yes. What I would tell these sales people was the schedule of the bids and the reason I don't 'try out others' or take in bids between the RFQ is because "I want people I do business with to know that I am not going to stick them in the back. If you got business from me by just getting it now how much would you trust me not to replace you next week when someone else comes in and makes the same claims you just made?". I've never had a sales guy not understand that point and they would participate in the next bid if they were still around.

In magic it is a bit different because there is a thing called professional courtesy. Basically magician Bill did the work to get into the door at the restaurant, he worked to show the management and staff that magic can be a working component in the restaurant. So now Magician Smitty wants to walk the trail cut by Bill and then insult Bill and take the job from him the only way he knows how....to undercut him? Sorry, that is wrong. There is a reason why a company that creates something and patents it gets the market to themselves for awhile or can sell their technology to others, it is because they did the work. If magicians were like businesses they could lock down a restaurant for a period of time before the vultures move in, but they don't have that pull. There may not be a law against it but it isn't right to backdoor another magician. If you want the job so freakin' bad go find a restaurant and do the hard part yourself and maybe you'll respect others efforts a bit more.

Oh for you who are now thinking "wait, magician Sammy was the third magician there so it is okay for me to go in and badmouth him and undercut him!" you are scummy too.

I want to thank everyone for their response on this thread and I'm glad (and sad too) that I'm not the only one who has had problems with this happneing.

Based on what I've read, I will say that anyone who justifys taking another persons job is scum. I'm not like many Magicians out there who "claim" to be a professional. "I AM" a professional. I support my wife and my daughter on Magic and always have. I've never had a "real" job if you will. I've been lucky enough to share my talents with the world full time. The ONLY money that our family makes is thru my Magic. So just remember...when you're out there "competeting" for my job someplace, I hope you know that you're running the risk of taking food from my familys mouth!

FOR THE RECORD...I've never lost a gig to another Magician who pulls this bs...but it's still aggrivating to have it happen. When I walk into a restaurant and I'm told they have another Magician already working there, I simply leave my card with the Manager and ask them to please pass it on to the performer so we can meet and hopefully become friends.

I usually just throw out the cards that I'm given...but I think I'm going to start calling these people and giving them a piece of my mind and try to stop the madness from continuing.

When I first got into magic 12 years ago I did this to someone and wish I he would have called me on it then. Fortunately, this was the one and only time as I learned from the situation. The unfortunate part is I am pretty sure I lost what could have been a wonderful mentor in the process.

In it's truest form, yes, it is nothing more than competition. But in the bigger picture there are many reasons not to do it and if you want to stay in the business and have anybody left willing to help you (learn a sleight, answer a question, or send a show your way) then don't do it.

Well Said!

No. It's called "unethical behavior."

If you are a member of one of the performing unions and another member tries to solicit a gig out from under you, he will be fined and/or suspended. You can also take guys like this before your local ring or assembly.

I just call cousin Niki

The worst thing is when someone comes in to undercut you with YOUR OWN MATERIAL!!!

I've had this happen. Threats of mayhem worked wonders.

There are scumbags like this in every business. In Austin, there was a steel guitar player who used to go around to various C&W joints. If he heard a band he liked, he would solicit the steel man's gig out from under him. He bounced around from band to band for a while. Then everyone caught on. Most of the bands in Austin were non-union.

There's a very famous banjo player who did the same thing. He played banjo, dobro®, upright bass, guitar and fiddle. When he got called in for a gig, he would go up to the fellow who was running the session and explain that he could play all those instruments better than the other guys, so they would be dismissed and he would come in and overdub all the parts.

Karma catches up with people like that. He made a recording of a tune that was used in a movie sound track. He told the movie company it was traditional. A year later, after it had sold over a million copies, the fellow who owned the copyright took the movie company to court for his royalties. He won. The musician kind of fell off the face of the Earth.

A magician trying to take a job from another magician is just one thing .... LAZY.

The original magician pitched the idea, cultivated the clientele, worked the room sometimes for years. In most cities there are several hundred restaurants and only a handful with entertainment. Tell to go do their own work.




Oh yeah they are scum too......

A friend of mine was working at one of the better restaurant chains one night, when a magician from out of town came in. He was dressed impeccably -- tuxedo, starched shirt, shined shoes -- but he had an "off" smell. Seems he didn't take care of personal hygiene as well as he did his clothing.

After my friend left, this other fellow solicited his job. He offered to work for tips. The restaurant manager could see that this fellow would cost him business. His big trick was having a card selected, whereupon it would vanish from the deck and he would retrieve it from the cleavage of the lady at the table. It might have worked in the 'hood, but it didn't play in a family environment. The fellow plagued Houston for a couple of years, then moved on.

One of the worst we ever had was a radio announcer who called himself "Magical M___ A____." He used his position as a radio announcer to advertise his magic services. He did two tricks. He would make your boss or secretary float (Super-X) or he would saw them in half (MAK sabre saw). He charged $75.00. This was way under what the pro's were charging for similar shows. He also took no care in setting up or taking down, so he exposed both of these to about half the attendees at every show. He was finally moved to another city.

Bottom line. Learn to live with the scum. Walk on land instead of swimming in a stagnant pool.

It's bottom dwellers like this that make it so important to have a good relationship with other workers in your area. Well, there are a number of other reason too but this is a good one.

That I know of, I've never had this happen to me from another member of the IBM or SAM.

Derrick

Hmmm...I have also had others try to take my job. I agree that a strong relationship with the owners is the key.

But I recently had a balloon twister come in and solicit and got a job at a venue that I work. He works on a night that I am not in. I asked the owners about it and they said that the magic is such a big hit that they decided to do more...I don't do balloons (the owner knows that) so the owner thought it was okay. I did not loose my job, but still feel kind of uneasy about it. I have done nothing about it, just continue to do my job. But it still kind of bothers me. Funny thing is that I have known this person for many years and we are friends.

Anyone have something like this happen?

thanks,

David

I've not had this happen, but if he is your friend and knows that you work at this restaurant, he should have spoken to you before approaching the managment. He crossed the line in my book.

I'm trying to envision this guy wearing a tuxedo in the 'hood. Now that's a picture!

S2000,

You're a real piece o'work. Nobody's telling you that you CAN'T do any of these things, you may try this everywhere you go. Work for tips, work for free, we don't care. Pay the restaurant so you can work.

Steve

I am not saying what anyone else should or should not do.

It is simply not a great move and it really says a lot about those who do it and condone it.

Undercutting with someones own material, oh that happened in Chicago to a quite famous magician! EVERYONE knew it. It was indeed sad.

Danny's first post, above, was right on target. Don't sell magic, sell YOU! YOU are the ONLY one who can supply YOU.

I used to work at a place in Boise. I'd been there for a year or so and developed quite a following, and had built good relationships with the owners, staff and management. One day, a younger (probably--almost certainly--less attractive) magician came in and asked to talk to the manager. Technically the kid was superior to me, there's no doubt. He offered to work for free. The manager said, "No thanks. We've already got a guy here, and there's no way we'd do that to him. He has been a big help to us, and tons of people come in to see him. Not "the magician", HIM."

Anyone can learn to do a few tricks. Precious few can build relationships and make themselves a valuable commodity to the establishment / client. That's why there are very few who make it as full time pros. The successful ones understand that it's all about the business and relationships. The unsuccessful ones think it's all about the tricks!