So the topic won't get deleted, I won't mention names or cast blame.

In the US, you can copyright a script or a video. You can patent equipment.

In the issue that's been under discussion on this forum, I think there are a couple of things at work that haven't been well-defined in our artform. Intellectual property is one. Industrial espionage is another.

The former might be very similar to copyright issues in how it would be seen by a jury.

The latter would have to show that the information was passed along in an illegitimate way. I'm guessing that lack of credits and consultant fees could be interpreted as dishonest action.

It still would end up being a legal conflict between the primary parties, not a thing that involves a group, unless the group claimed authorship.

It opens a lot of discussion. For example, I've seen equipment and routines for sale where the author holds performance and/or television rights to him/herself. But, it's for sale. So where can boundaries be legitimately placed?

A lot of Escape is covered in books (it's not a huge field in terms of content). If you get an idea from a book and take it a different direction, where does authorship lie? If, in a routine, you do exactly what's in the book, do you owe royalties to the author?

A few years ago, there was a series of TV specials done by "The Masked Magician". He was chastised by the magic community for exposing trade secrets. A small group of magicians sued him, I think, for contract violation. I'm not sure if it was violation of an on-paper non-disclosure clause, or if it was about the secrecy that's implicit in this artform. Has anybody ever heard of the outcome of that?

Valentino is fine and the suit to not show the program failed.

Teller copyrighted a routine as a play. Good idea.

Yes it is legal to "monkey see, monkey do".

Do you want to buy from or sell to monkeys? Much less trust such with your hard work?

Jonathan in answer to your two questions.

Apparently it doesn't matter.

You are free to be part of the problem by selling to and buying from "monkeys".

Whether or not you hold yourself accountable for the consequences of your behavior is a seperate issue.

Yea Jonathan I know we all have issues here lol

I've always had a problem with the notion of selling an effect and withholding rights. If the limitation is enforceable, why would anyone buy the effect? Just to see how it worked?

Usually not a legal matter unless there is a signed document.

Most I've seen amount to requests NOT to televise performances which seems sensible.

If the work is registered as a play there are well defined processes for seeking performance rights.

Personally I have found a Baseball bat & a hired hand to be MOST

EFFECTIVE ! In handeling contractual disagreements.....

No need to spend money on lawyers, Simple ,Direct & to the Point !




Shestack

Mabe not to settle the contract diuspute, but you'll need one to settle the assault and attempted murder charges

Amazing what a hired hand will do for Good ole American greenbacks.

What you don't under stand Mr.Manniung is sometimes "push comes to shove" & in the Long run you will have VERY LITTLE sastifaction working with & thru a lawyer...........In the Long run they WILL bleed you dry this is a simple FACT !

Fact ! look at Walter Blaney trying to protect his ladder Suspension He could do nothing, The Magic community did Nothing other than buy the much cheaper Knock offs , ,Lawyers did Nothing , The WDA tries but failed in the end so .....so the Great Illusion was Knocked off by the Dozen .

Houdini had the right approach..Rip me off & I'LL kick your A-- !!! We can talk about it later ......Again Direct & to the Point ! I beg to differ Mr. Manning But you sound like a lawyer ... Fact ! some times Push does come to shove ...or worse !



SS

I suppose we can fantasize about doing a Dr. Phibes or Saw number on those who feel it's okay to copy.

I simply don't believe such would help us in the short term or long run.

Mr. Townsend


Vincent Price was a GENIUS !!!! who was well aware of his Value at the BOX OFFICE... & By God he PROTECTED IT !!!!!

My uncle was a vetern of many Hollywood movies who knew & worked w/ VP for Over 20 Yrs....Vp Loved magic & Mystery & was well aware of the underside of not only the magical arts but Entertainment field as a Whole !........He protected his Creativity as he knew it would be his ........Legacy


ss

Evil Knievel once used an aluminum baseball bat and shouted "I am going to kill you." when he had an issue over Sheldon Saltman's book about the Snake River Canyon Jump.

Citing Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evel_Knievel

"A judge in the case called Knievel's actions among the "most despicable" and "cowardly" that he had ever seen. On October 14, 1977, Knievel pleaded guilty to battery and was sentenced to three years probation and six months in the county jail."

This resulted in Knievel filing for Bankruptcy.

It is a matter of personal choice SS but that is not a route I would choose to go down, even if I felt that I had been the victim of theft.

I know this, my response was sort of a humerous take on your comments.

When I competed in contact martial arts, I once broke a guy's nose for a $20 trophy, so I know what people will do



I agree it's best to cut someone off at the knees and expose them for the rip off and fraud that they are. HH was great at doing this and bringing these thieves to ruin. For the record, I am business man who is studying to become an accountant

Again, I think your comments were pretty on target in spirit and I was just cracking a joke

I think that if a person is going to sell a magic effect, he or she should think about the following:

1. If it's any good it will get stolen and sold for less.
2. There is practically nothing (or nothing practical)you can do about it especially if you are in the USA and the thief is in Hong Kong.
3. You can find contentment in contributing to the magic community.
4. Maybe there will be enough initial sales to at least cover your costs or even make some money before it's stolen.
5. Maybe in the long run people will realize the knock-offs are junk and return to you.

There's one other thing to consider. If someone is rich and sues someone who is poor, the rich guy will almost always win since the poor guy can't spend tens of thousnads of dollars in legal fees.

Hence, if a poor man steals a trick from a rich performer, he could be sued out of business and into bankrupcy. In a case like this, it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. Does it? Only the end result matters.

Regards,
Don Itjen

There's one thing I know for sure. There is absolutely NO PLACE where you can get the answers to any ethical questions about selling magic tricks. That's what is so frustrating. No one can really answer these questions and there are no rules laid down anywhere:

1. Exposure: what is acceptable behaviour, what is not? Exactly where is the line?
2. Copying a routine: Is it OK to sell a differnet method of doing it?
3. Copying a gimmick: Is it OK to sell a differnet method of making it?
4. When is it OK to perform a routine that you saw someone else do? When is it not?

I'm totally confused!!! No one has any real solid answers.
Is this info printed by any magic organization?
How is anyone supposed to know?

Thanks,
Don

Don, the end result of such behavior is that less new magic is shown openly at magic conventions. Those who create will do so and it's only those who want second and third hand magic who lose out.

But as to those who would buy second and third hand magic... I wonder how they manage?

Anyway you wanted the legalities:

Unless patented, you can make what you please and sell it.
Unless protected as a play you can deconstruct and reconstruct any work you see and sell that too.

And given our current tolerance of such things it seems you can sell any magic item you see in the stores as you see fit and such will be without legal consequence.

Such is what is in our market. And since that which is rewarded (sales dollars) defines the good, we have a clear understanding of what constitutes the good in the market of magic.