I see a number of threads here where folks are angry about youtube. What is the difference between a video showing how it is done on youtube, and a book/DVD showing how it is done?

Only difference I see is that I have to buy the book/DVD, so I stimulate some commerce there.

Unlike the subject of music piracy/downloading however, the threads I've seen about youtube exposure (so far) aren't addressing the issue of losing money - it's just the exposure.

So how is watching "the secret" online different than reading it from a book or watching it on a DVD?

Is it simply the "mass market easy access" to anyone with a computer and the patience to search that makes this unacceptable to some? With a book/DVD, you have to do a little more work to get secrets...

Just curious for opinions/explanations. Also, I'll add that I am a novice, so I'm just looking for answers to this question, not advocating either side or wanting to start a firestorm...

No different.

Hard to tell if you are being serious or not as I get a lot of replies in "code" around here.

But if you are, there seems to be a large number of your peers who *really* disagree, judging by the number of youtube threads, youtube petition, etc.

Just a matter of dealers complaining about lost sales

The numbers runners in NYC marched when Off Track Betting was legalized.

I imagine they did. I can certainly understand the frustration of people who see their works pirated and potential income lost. Every tune downloaded illegally is a tune not paid for (although it is debatable if it would have been bought otherwise...)

But again, for some around here, there seems to be a different "exposure" issue besides just lost income. I don't get that part (yet.)

You asked about exposure. That's open availability of magic data outside the magic community.

Ordinarily we keep the discussion of people's works which have been put up for sale without permission seperate as that tends to happen inside the magic community.

Now if a magic vendor were to permit sales of magic data to people who have not already held themselves accountable to the magic community for keeping secrets... that too is exposure.

Well, I tried sifting through that massive thread about a petition. I can see in there that there is some mention of lost income streams.

That makes sense - there is potential income being lost when someone who "might" have paid $ for a secret instead gets it for free. Notice the "might," though, they "might" instead have spent that money on something else. Every viewing is not a lost sale.

As some posters mentioned in that thread, anyone can order a video, buy a book, etc. That is my point exactly. Of course there there is a penalty (the financial cost) to discover the information. Since youtube is free, information flow is less restricted.

Well, I hate to say it, but good luck to all the magicians who want to fight the internet. You will need it.

I suppose it boils down to the ease of access and immediacy of youtube - it's 24/7/365 worldwide exposure, so secrets can travel fast. I can understand also how that might be upsetting to someone whose livelihood depends on performances requiring some amount of deception (among all the other things).

As an novice amateur - a "hack" magician as some of you like to say - I can say that perhaps those fears are not *entirely* justified. Although many people may be digging up the secrets on youtube, my guess is that exposed magic secrets comprise a tiny tiny fraction of the videos being viewed there.

Only some subset of the population at large cares about magic, and only a fraction of that subset cares to search youtube for "the secret", and only a fraction of that fraction will find it or have the patience or level of understanding to really gain anything from that. Only a fraction of that will ever do anything with it. But it can't be denied that some will. The internet is like putting a copy of Royal Road on everyone's table. Not everyone will care about it, read it, or understand it. Some will.

As an alternative view, I can offer that *perhaps* there is an upside in generating interest in magic that would not otherwise come to pass.

Might as well look at the upside...

Cristo! good post. I would like to point out, magicians are not my peers... I'm not a magician, nor do I care to be one.

JT makes some good observations. The point is, whether it is for profit or not it is the same.

evolution is part of life, and so is the way media is presented. Magicians are culpable for the vast exposure of magic. I've said it before and I will always stand by it. Magic in books or videos are "NOT" secrets. They are a digestion of peoples thoughts who are driven by ego or money.

Is it illegal? absolutely not (unless they are putting up copyrighted work). there is nothing that can legally stop me from exposing all of magics secrets if I choose to do so. Folks tried to do that with Valentino and failed.

If you want it kept a secret don't write it up or put on video. Share it with trustworthy people, that's all.

You don't need to generate interest by writing books and making videos.

Personally, I feel there are too many magicians, and all this has done is create more talentless magicians, and a bunch of other whining, cry-baby, magicians.

There's no difference. A book is exposure, so is a DVD, so is You Tube. There are also public domain books and DVDs which you can obtain legally from the net without paying anything. Selling your magic is exposure, and discussing it with other magicians is exposure.

If any person doesn't want their magic exposed, they shouldn't sell it or discuss it. They should keep it for their own performance.

The main reason magicians moan about exposure is that they want to recycle old magical ideas, and call them their "creations" after adding a couple of lines of new patter. They want to sell them to other magicians, and they don't want other magicians going on You Tube, and being reminded about the principles behind similar old public domain stuff to that they are trying to recycle.

It's all to to do with a unofficial cartel to preserve a second hand market disguised as a new one.

Blackshadow, you are 100% correct. and my interpretation of your post senses a little frustration; like me, you are tired of all the whining and complaining.

a tip of the hat to you sir!

A great thread - and inline of what I keep saying when it comes to discussions about disclosure . . .

You'll also notice that the majority of people exposing tricks on YouTube are quite young. It is, and has been for decades, the norm as an adolescent to challenge the norm and break "the rules". I would say that the people that Blackshadow is referring to are the very ones responsible for the exposure, in a six degrees of seperation kind of way. If the guys that are STILL whinging about the masked magician shows stopped, and realised it doesn't matter, perhaps the "exposees" would realise that they're not p***ing anyone off anymore, and pursue more enjoyable hobbies, such as frying ants with magnifying glasses.

A great thread guys.

-- Topher

Mr Loubard, I am a realist. I expect some whining and complaining. The market changes, and people will need to find new ways of making a living out of magic. The Internet has changed accessibility and that can't be fought. There's greater global opportunity though so new huge markets in India and China will need to be addressed by the clever ones.

True, most of the people putting stuff on You Tube are quite young. That's also where the big market lies. There's not so many old farts in their 40's like me who are going to buy new effects. A huge slice of the market is 11-18 year old teenage boys with eager expectations. I see no reason not to let them speculate and swap ideas on You Tube. They will gain knowledge and develop their own styles. Those are the people who suck up the magic YT threads. The rest of the YT lay people are too busy surfing for LG15, big boobs, or girls fighting.

How many lay people are going to sit through a 6 minute vid on the particular finger movements needed to get a card to the top of the deck. I'm only needing one hand to count those.

So, Exposure... yes. Mediocre ideas... yes. But as a meeting place and discussion medium for young aspiring magicians it's exceptional.

Covered, recovered, covered again. First thing to note is that "exposure" is not one thing, it is two things. "Exposure" Is the revelation of the mechanics of effects to those not indoctrinated in to the magic community. It is also the revelation of the workings of the mechanics of effects to those who have not purchases the source materials. Each form of exposure is wrong for a different reason, but often they get addressed together, as one form, causing confusion.

One should not teach magic effects, which are not created by said person, or known public domain, to others who have not bought the source materials for said effect. This violates an individuals right to profit from their hard work and creativity.

One should not allow those outside the magic community to be readily exposed to the workings of magic effects without indoctrination into the rules of our community. Magic is intended, and best enjoyed by an audience which does not know it's workings. Allowing those workings to become public knowledge does a great dis service to all potential audiences, who will then be largely unable to enjoy it "as intended". Anyone wishing to learn how to perform magic can do so by any of the time honored methods which exist. The difference between "U-tube" and a book is that a book requires considerably more effort to use. Likewise, books require that one go forth, find, and retrieve said book. Considerably more effort that turning on ones computer, typing in "magic" and hitting the "play" tab. Even the available library of instructional videos used by magicians (not my preference, but acceptable) require more effort than "U-Tube". Just like movie spoilers, the viewing public has a right to not be exposed to the workings of magical effects that they might one day enjoy. Thus said information is considered "need to know" and only those who agree to hold said information responsibly should have access to it. Enforcing such a boundaries are, of course, quite impossible, thus we operate on the spoken rule of non exposure. The honor system, so to speak.

Ask an Eskimo about exposure.

Ask a flasher about exposure.

Roseanne likes exposure.


Exposure is MANY things.

Not in the context of conjuring.

Information given without a "need to know" pretty much covers it.

Some people hold that the exposure of other's data is a laudable act. Are you one of them?

If someone sells/hawks ideas on a global basis to the masses then they must expect their material to become part of the public domain.

If someone shares in confidence to a few friends on the understanding it goes no further then, morally speaking anyway, they have a right to expect it remains private.

BlackShadow, there are actually laws both country to country and international pertaining to Copyright and things becoming public domain. Difficult and sometimes impossible to enforce. The ethics of intellectual property is not actually covered by copyright law, but if one applies the copyright to the intellectual concepts contained within said work, you will be on solid ethical ground. Teaching other magicians how to execute an effect contained within a copyrighted work is not illegal, but is unethical. Teaching other magicians how to execute an effect found within a work who's copyright has expired and is now public domain, is completely legal and ethical.

Good is that which is rewarded.

Ethos is the patters of good behavior in a society.

Therefore teaching other people's magic is good and ethical in our society.

And who would want to change that?

Very well said Drew, I agree with your statement.



it is no different

I think youtube has a lot of copyrighted effects that are not available in say the Library though.