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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
I'm with Pete on not turning the Ramsay routine into a chop cup routine. Mind you I don't like the idea of a chop cup mixed into a cup and ball routine anyway. I tried it did not like it at all and have had talks with others that feel the same. I know there are some out there that do like such a thing tho.
There is nothing wrong with reworking the Ramsay routine to fit you. But to change it by adding a chop cup to me it's then no longer the Ramsay routne. It may be kind of related to it but don't try to say it's the same thing as it would not be. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
If you are not John Ramsay there is no point in doing the routine as written. Really. It was designed to work for a certain audience and at a certain time. It served him well and he knew to let go of it back in 1948 and taking it tour back in 1950. And kindly don't be so judgmental as to whether or not he would have chopped the cups if he had access to the materials.
The last thing Ramsay wanted or supported is copyists. Be yourself he said. And he meant it. He was out to fool the gang and did so while being pleasant and even playful about it. Those feints are simply not going to work today. And unless you are really so clever as to be able to design new feints for those moments you are not going to get the effect he got from those moments. I'm surprised to read some of comments being made here about a routine that most here have not done for audiences AS WRITTEN WITH THE PROPS AS DESCRIBED and explored the trick from there. Now for those who are actually exploring the trick and understand the differences between Ramsay's routine and Hofzinser's, consider the application of a regular cup set to the trick, knowing what having that extra cup available permits (for the climax especially if you like mouthcoils ) Here's another idea for the well read and open minded: Look at David Roth's chop cup routine. And think about it using TWO of those nice mini-chop cups. Then look at the Ramsay routine. And now ask yourself what would your audiences enjoy. Pete, I'm sorry we happen not to see eye to eye on this at the moment. You have way more performing experience than I will ever have and if you were in the area I'd be bugging you with lots of questions about how to sell certain bits in the routine and also about making a gaffed cup that would do something which I have not seen in our literature. Did you get to see Ramsay perform this routine? If so, how was it to watch? Would you describe your impressions of the performance?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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swindler New user 6 Posts |
I have to agree. I have a copy of the Ramsay Cups and Balls book by Victor Farelli and its funny as I was just looking at it last night and haven't looked for years. There is some great history in the book and the routine is good but the props would look really bad nowadays. It is also important to remember that Ramsay was generally doing his magic in an old grocey store and what he used would have fitted in with the setting.
BTW I just thought that I would tell you that I won the Johnny Ramsay Rosebowl at a Scottish convention many many years ago. It's given to the most inventive trick and had not been presented in prior 10 years. Its on my DVD available from Murphys: "Punishment" by Patrick McCullagh. (Just a small plug).
Available for hangings, funerals or any special occasion.
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Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-30 08:06, swindler wrote: I was able to purchase the book through eBay several years ago and I've wondered since then if anyone has been performing the routine - but I disagree with the statement that "the props would look really bad nowadays." I think Richard Evans' set looks great. http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/Ta......e_02.jpg http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/Ta......e_03.jpg Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Frankly I don't care if you want to use Dixie Cups or the cups Jake has fashioned from my design and if you chop 'em or not.
The REASON that I devised these was for those interested in the history of Ramsay's handling/routine, etc. as a starting point. It's like learning Vernon's routine with three cups. Once you have these (and say the Johnny Paul or Fred Kaps routines with sponge balls) then you are armed with more information and skill, and then you can move on to what fits you, your skill level and audience needs. To Jonathan: Sorry, I never did see Ramsay work. Wish I had. I did see Scotty Hooten who I have been told was the most "Ramsay-like" of anyone. He would hold out something (several small balls) for hours standing around chatting, then when he did the routine nobody figured where the heck he got them! :cups:
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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swindler New user 6 Posts |
Yes, the pictures of the cups look good but homemade. I suppose it depends on who your intended audience is going to be. In a corporate arena they may look a little unexciting. (However I am sure someone will disagree and that's fine.)
Cheers Patrick. http://www.pat-trick.com.au
Available for hangings, funerals or any special occasion.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
It's odd that anyone would not consider the context of the Ramsay props or the audiences for which he performed. Did John Ramsay do corporate work? Not that I know of. But he fooled his customers at his grocery store, and he fooled all the boys at the magic club meetings and conventions. That was basically his goal.
His strongest suit was that his magic was natural and that it fit him. Anyone who has visited my web site knows that I do like the newer versions of the Ramsay cups. But think of this. Much of our magic started off as street cons. The cups and balls is a perfect example of this. Its crooked cousin, the shell game, is usually performed with the simplest of props -- bottlecaps, matchbox drawers, etc. That's part of what makes it so disarming. Ramsay's simple props made his magic more natural. But swindler is right. These wouldn't look elegant at a corporate gig. So, you wouldn't use them there.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
Pete are you still trying/thinking about writing this up? I'm very interested in studying the routine. I got the cups coming but no routine. It has interested me from the time I first read a description.
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I await a reply from the copyright holder.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
Awesome, I hope it goes well =)
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Robert Kohler Special user Fayetteville, Arkansas 520 Posts |
Pete:
I'm also very interested - have been waiting for the cups from Jake.............
We judge ourselves by our intentions - others judge us by our actions.....
<BR> <BR>B. Wilson |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I have reached the copyright holder and we are working on an agreement. Should know the details in a day or two. It is looking good.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts |
That is certainly good news, Pete.
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts |
That's great news! thanks for your efforts pete!
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Do we know anyone who saw Ramsay do the trick?
It must have been fun when he toured in 1950. I'm kind of lost watching others do the thing and that mid-air vanish still eludes me. I hope any additional publications on that trick can include some about how Ramsay performed it and how to learn the sleights involved.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts |
Was Ramsay's performance, by any chance, recorded or video taped? If it is, anyone knows who is marketing that tape?
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I don't think video was invented when he was performing...
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
There may be some films of him, though. Those could always be transferred.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts |
I really hope we can view his cups performances. It is going to be a rare and valuable historical footage.
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Thanks to the kindness of the copyright holder, Martin Breese, I am going to be producing a "very limited" edition of the Ramsay Cups and Balls routine, based on the Farrelli book. The entire routine with all the original photos and text will be included.
This will be VERY LIMITED and the price will be determined after the pre-production time and costs are evaluated. STAY TOONED.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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