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smithpaul60 Veteran user South Carolina 301 Posts |
Hey guys,
There is a post in the Coin section that has inspired me. I've been thinking about this for a while now and I'm going to do it. I'm going to write an essay for the magic world about the art of Convincing. I feel it is the most important skill we have; if we can't convince our audience that the coin is in this hand or the deck really is shuffled then we fail from the start. The problem is I have to do some research to see what the masters have said and what the fresh ideas are. So what I need from you is ideas and resources. Ideas: If you have any stories or tips/tricks/subtleties you don't mind sharing. The smaller the better, I want to analyze everything from eye movement to posture to sound etc. I want everything. Resources: If you know about any essays or posts that could pertain on the subject, let me know. Even if it is in a book tell me what book to get (and I'll see if I can afford it.) If it is online please post a link. The essay that got me started is the last one in the Books of Wonder (highly recommended). I want everything. I'm a coin guy but I know there are a lot of ideas from every type of magic out there. I would even like ideas from outside of magic. I want this to be well researched and professionally written. You will get credit for your ideas; I'm not trying to present your ideas as mine, I just think the the magic world could use this. Please post, even if you think you don't think your "not worthy" or if it has already been said. Post your ideas, your words might help me better understand the idea. Thanks in advance for your help Smithpaul60 |
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-30 09:59, smithpaul60 wrote: Heh, that's going to get expensive. If you need a starting point, look at Darwin Ortiz's discussion on convincers in Strong Magic. It's pretty broad but should give you some ideas -- overt convincers vs. subtle convincers, how to use them, etc. From there you can look at Designing Miracles. He's got a section talking about how to convince someone of a card transposition without actually signing the card. It's a really interesting study, and I wish somehow it could have been taken to a more abstract level with other sorts of effects (changes, penetrations, etc.). With that same category of effect he also breaks down the things that can be done in order to change the audience's critical interval (the time period between when the audience believes the effect has begun and when they believe it's ended) -- the techniques used act as convincers of a different sort. I don't know if that section will be what you're looking for, but it's worth reading nonetheless. Look into everything that has the word "subtlety" next to it. Many of those are meant to be convincers. Find famous methods and analyze their "touches". Whit Haydn has some interesting work on a technique called "Calling the card face down". It's explained elsewhere in the Food For Thought section. It's a technique that can be used to persuade an audience to believe in conditions that are untrue. Again, not sure if it's what you're looking for, but there you go. |
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smithpaul60 Veteran user South Carolina 301 Posts |
That is exactly what I want.
I don't think I can get everything but those that come strongly recommended will be added to my list. Thanks. Next... |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
... I'm going to write an essay for the magic world about the art of Convincing.... Convincing, or eliciting the sentiment of conviction has a significant similarity to rhetoric. From a theatrical perspective (of which our craft is a tiny subset) the character (story) and acting/mime skills which convey the non-verbal aspects of this elicitation are more easily explored after one first has a character and explores how that character relates to the scripted actions which include the occurrence of magic. The basics the performing strategies are more easily explored in context of a theater group where one has the support of fellow actors and a director whose job it is to ensure that the performance conveys their interpretation of the script to the audience. Before setting down to write it would help if the "magician" writes of things they know and believe, especially the very thing they wish to convey to audiences.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
You have to believe.
When you supposedly transfer an object from one hand to another you have to feel it and hold that hand as if it's there. The "Bluff Vanish" for Bobo is a fine example. I usually take(?) a small coin from a pile of coins, adjust it in my hand, hold it up and say,"A dime." I'll re-adjust my hand, make a crumbling motion and the coin is gone. I've actually asked,"See the dime?" and got yes as the reply. Passing the coin(?) from hand to hand is another ruse. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Jaz, it does not matter what the performer "feels".
What does matter is whether or not the audience believes the character that the performer is presenting has some intention behind their actions and if they (the character) appears to be acting in a manner which is congruent to their attributed intentions.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Justin Style Inner circle 2010 Posts |
If you don't believe in yourself, No ONE is going to believe in you, or what you are doing!
It's that simple. |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
JT.
When I say "feels" I'm saying that you should imagine that the nonexistant object is a real one that is felt and handled accordingly. In my Bluff example the intention is to simply vanish a coin. Nothing more. Justin just said it a different way. |
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smithpaul60 Veteran user South Carolina 301 Posts |
JT
I appreciate the theatrical input. And will keep those thoughts in mind as I prepare this. Rest assured I know my character and where I want to go with it. Those actings and non-verbal cues are what I want here, I didn't put my own thoughts here because I didn't want to "muddy the waters" but I do appreciate you bringing it to the front as I believe that a self-evaluation is a starting point to self-improvement. thanks for the input. I do hawever agree with Jazz in that you must believe (or at least mentally choose to believe) in your magic. That creates a silent script that will allow the "acting" portion to be easier. you don't actually feel the coin but your "silent script" allows you to fully act as if you do. I honestly feel that we are talking about the same thing in different words. Other ideas... |
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
Smithpaul,
I'm sensing that when you started this discussion you already had some ideas in mind for convincing tools -- after all, you felt like writing an essay on the subject. If this is the case, why not share the ideas? |
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smithpaul60 Veteran user South Carolina 301 Posts |
Erlandish,
you are right I do have some ideas but I also know that I am in no way an expert on the subject. I want ideas freely given, that I may not know. By giving my own ideas at the start then others would feel limited to those ideas. At least in a small amount they would; and then simply agree or dissagree. I don't plan on keeping these to my self, I plan on eventually plan on posting it here. In reality I'm doing this so that I can better understand my own thoughts by putting them on paper in conjunction with the ideas of others. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I suppose we could reduce this to "how to stimulate their mirror neurons and sense recall from earlier experiences" but that's just one method of eliciting conviction.
Why are we even discussing this stuff in public? And why offer an essay which will likely get posted in public and distributed all over the internet to all and sundry? Would this general discussion not be the very worst kind of exposure possible? BTW, the technique you want is called anchoring. Till they have a context they have nothing to believe. Till they have something to believe they have no reason to feel conviction. Now if you are willing to anchor what you wish them to believe to their base motivations ...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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smithpaul60 Veteran user South Carolina 301 Posts |
I'm sorry you feel that way JT. I don't. I feel that if it helps improve the art then it is worth it. If you could elorabate your post to me in a pm that would be much apprecited. If it is the consensus of the forum not to post it here then I won't, but unless it turns out to be a REALLY big project (i.e. Book, which I'm not planning) Then I don't intend to charge for it.
as a rhetoric for your point I would offer: You brought up theatre. Should acting classes be only in secret? I feel that many of the "younger" (in Magic, of which I consider myself) could use a course of this type. And I would offer freely. besides which lurkers just looking for trick don't really spend that much time in a section devoted to theory. Guys I really don't want this to be an argument. If you don't agree and feel you need to voice an opinion please let me know by pm. I don't mind critisim as it will only help me improve but I do want to keep to the topic I wanted. I offer it to you.... |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
There's already a ton of stuff right here on open forums that are discussed and probably shouldn't be. Can one more really hurt?
I'm not so sure that an essay on convincing magic would be so bad. It's not something that the general public is going to look for and if they do, info can be found elsewhere on the Net. Secret Session, a link elsewhere or JTs suggestion of creating an essay forum may be a better idea. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-30 12:16, smithpaul60 wrote:... Theater offers the beneifts of a contained, socally accepted venue where the student gets to work with other actors, a script and a director. A safe and structured enviornment where one can learn to bring a character to life for the audience during a performance. If folks here want to grow a little they can get into a local theater group and get some experience and learn at their own pace. It all really does come from character. Till the magician can distinguish their performing character from their self/person they are going to be quite lost in this process. That is why I strongly suggest it be handled away from magic context. The subject you are exposing is not ecological for many here nor IMHO for the craft in general at this time. At its root you are asking folks to create a character that is comfortable where they are not, and then to put that character in public where they will get raw feedback. IMHO that is not so healthy. What would happen if you believed? What would happen if they believed you?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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smithpaul60 Veteran user South Carolina 301 Posts |
JT,
Thanks for the Anchoring tip. A quick look on Google helped a lot. that is exactly what I need. Quote:
On 2007-08-30 12:36, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I understand the conviction you have for this topic. If you feel it shouldn't be posted then I won't. But I will offer it to those who ask (once it is done) Considering Character; I would like ideas from all levels of development. If it is because it might be uncomfortable, let them choose to post or not. I won't tell them they are "bad ideas" and I expect the same respect from the others here. I just want ideas to help me to write. Just to clarify, I'm hoping to dig a bit deeper than what comes natural to most. Keep 'em coming.... |
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Alex Linian Inner circle Peru 1277 Posts |
Interesting, I'm also writing about this subject at the moment....
Let you know as soon as I have finished.
Check out SKYCAP from Paul Harris Presents!- "A fine trick from the dynamic foursome..."
Jared Brandon Kopf, Magic Magazine PUNCTURE 2.0 - "Jaw-dropping amazing... You also get the absolute best teaching DVD I have ever seen" - Genii Magazine SLEIGHT OF HAND that looks like Magic. --- Alex Linian | Instagram |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
So much writing. No mention of grimoirs either.
So who is the ideal reader? What must the ideal reader know and believe in order to accept what is being written? What steps does the writer take to check those necessary presuppositions?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Why not just do your own research for your essay?
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Jerrine Special user Busking is work. 629 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-30 15:21, Whit Haydn wrote: Magic is hard. |
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