Hello everyone. I have been interested in the center deal a couple of years back but never found a method that I really liked. Instead, I have studied all the centers I have come across (same with the bottom deal) and then finally I came up with a method of my own. Unfortunately, someone very knowledgeable informed me that it already exists. Anyway, I have been practising it for a couple of months, mostly before the summer started and now I am going to buy a videocamera and make a video of it and all my other sleights. For now I am only interested in who here, could be considered an expert when it comes to centers? I can't see a reason to post a public video and then get 90% none relevant comments. I assume that these experts also know about my other sleights and if they want to I would be glad to send them more videos later on for more advice.

Thank you.

Best advice I was given...

Laymen.

All you need is someone with a keen eye...If it passes by him, you have got a mighty center deal my friend.

I get laymens opinions all the time, that is why I want opinions from people in the know.

Thanks for your reply though.

Kim

Jimmy "Cards" Molinari perhaps.

Depending on what your skills are eventually being used for, if it was me, I'd be soliciting the opinion of those who play for money or those who deal or run the game for a living.

Hi MagicKim,

As I understand it, center dealing is essentially an exhibition skill showcased in gambling demo's like Andrew Wimhursts excellent Wimhurst Center Deal. However, even in the area of card magic there are too few exhibition deals of this nature. Gene Maze, who pretty much perfected a center dealing technique over many years apparently found little use for it. He has a small section in this 'The Art of Bottom Dealing'. Similarly, its use at the card table is very rare and probably almost non existent as there are many easier, less risky ways of 'getting the money'. I love practicing the center deal and I employ Andrew's technique as taught in his lecture notes. However, it is a lot of work for all too few moments of glory.

Regards,

Paul H

If you have not yet checked out the book The Magic and Methods of Ross Bertram and the section on the center deal. It has what could be the Kennedy method plus pictures of Dai Vernon doing it. And a very good text description of the move. The section is called the Allen Kennedy Center deal by Dai Vernon.

The story is the Allen Kennedy beat the top gamblers of his day with this deal.

Neat story as well as a great book. This is also the center I use and learned form this book and have posted video of years ago at my web site.

I hope this helps.

Paul H hit it on the nose....

It's nice to watch a center deal when well executed, but it's being labeled a cheating technique is pure malarky.

I say that any criticism is good, and that you should solicit all you can (this, by the way, was the point of this thread.) Laymen, as clock pointed out, are an irreplacable source of input. Other card handlers are, as well, an invaluable asset to your growth as, well, a card handler.

The center deal, again to agree with Paul H, is nonsense at the card table. I will even be more brazen than Paul H and go as far as to say that it is NOT used in modern day gambling games for any (non-laughable) amount of money.

You have to understand, therefore, that a "center dealing expert" will (in most cases) never be a professional cheat; one who KNOWS FIRST HAND what going for the money is all about. I could believe that you have the most impressive center deal ever, love watching it, and then turn right around and ask you why in the world you wouldn't have put all of that time and focus into something that would actually provide you with gains.

It's a neat trick for demo work, and shows how far that false dealing could be taken. If you plan on using it for demo work (which I certainly hope is the case), then there is not a single comment that you would "waste your time" taking into consideration.

If you are planning to use the game against those who sit behind any sort of respectable stacks, then I would suggest you seek mental health counseling, and take out a healthy life insurance policy.

As Paul H said, there are "safer" and "better" ways of getting the money. There are few more effective ways, however, of getting "ooh's and ahh's" than center dealing.

Hope this helps, and best of luck to you.

CC

When talking about things like the center deal and other card moves and things like Erdnase and "if" any move would work today I think that it is important to keep a few things in mind.

Erdnase was written in the 1900 and way back when saloons had people in them playing poker. When they played poker they played on a hard wood table that most likely had drinks on it. The jog shuffle was used a lot in those days because the card game was played on a hard wood table.

Things are different today and of course one should keep that in mind. The protocols of the game are very different. Texas Holdem is popular today and that was a game that was not invented during the Erdnase times.

Having said that in this magic forum we have talked about people like Allen Kennedy and his center deal and Walter Scott and his punch work. When they played cards five card stud was a very popular game. One must keep in mind that depending on the game played the cheating methods were different. And in my opinion what the "advantage player" could get away with depended on who that sat with, what game was played, and what the protocols of the game and room they played in were.

Having said all that - this is a "magic" forum and a magician may use a center deal for a different reason. I suggest magicians check out the T.N. Down's stuff of how Down's talked about the center deal and one of his ideas on how he used it.

I am of the opinion that the center deal as well as the jog shuffle is very useful in magic. But that is just my opinion.

MagicKim, if you get 90% of none relevant comments, it may be still worth getting those 10% relevant ones.
In the past, I did watched your previous videos and they are really impressive. And I think getting comments and support from laymen as well as from experts, it should be a great motivation for you to keep on practicing and improving. By the way, you're not exposing the move, so you still keep the details on which you worked hard and don't want to expose.

Bish,

You should probably stick to forums that are confined to topics on magic, and avoid those that are out of your league like a plague. Congratulations on another handcrafted piece of complete and utter nonsense. I actually had to read your post three of four times to CONFIRM that it has no bearing on this discussion whatsoever.

Tell me, Glenn, what game was the center deal designed for?

Was it five stud?

In five stud the deck is not only going to be tabled after every dealing round, but four of the five cards are going to be dealt face up. Correct me if I am wrong, but neither of those things make a center deal sound very good to me at all.

Eagerly awaiting your reply...

CC

Card Cheat,

what are you talking about? Center deal was designed to beat the cut, and not because of a specific game cheating strategy. The same goes with every other card move out there.

As far as center-dealing face up cards is concerned, all you have to do is watch Andrew Wimhurst dealing centers face up. As with every false move out there, dealing the cards face up is a lot more deceptive than trying to simulate dealing the cards face down.

And on a personal note, show respect to a guy that have been around card magic for a long time and keep this kind of childish outbursts to yourself.

The center deal never had a place in real gambling--you can read about the sole (apparently) instance of it being used in one of the Gardena card rooms a few decades ago in the Magician and the Card Sharp. The guy the story comes from is a reputable expert, so I'm willing to believe it.

For another excellent discussion on the center deal and gambling check out Forte's Poker Protection.

Hey Yiannis - thanks good to talk with you again.

My opinion of the center deal is that it can be a great move for magic. If it was used as a cheating move is only an "interest". But it has been written up in the Ross Bertram book that Allen Kennedy "did" use it. And "did" beat the top gamblers of "his" day.

I can't say if it was a fact or not - I wasn't there.

Just as I can't say if the center deal is being used or not in poker games today. I have not played cards in years. And I don't go to poker games. And I don't think anyone can offer anything other than their opinion. Because I do not think that even "you" card cheat - have played cards in every poker room and in every poker game in the world.

But thanks for your opinion anyway.

But I did use it in a safe poker game - and it worked and I wrote about that story once. But my interest in all this at this day and age is how to use it for magic.

By the way there is some interesting stuff on T.N. Downs and the center deal in the book Greater magic published by Kaufman.

Mr. Z, I read the article you referred to and I thought that the expert was not sure if the hustler was center dealing or not. Please refresh my memory.

Yiannis,

You say it right: I shouldn't talk to anyone like that in an open forum. Please forgive me for succumbing to such a temptation.

Although it contradicts your post, I will say that I believe the center deal is simply an example of just how far false dealing can go (and a good one at that.) I don't believe that the move has ever been used by serious hustlers.

CC

My opinion talking about this subject - cheating at the card table. Is that it depends on who the cheater sits in with. And the protocol of "how" the game is played in the "place" that the game was played.

I have that opinion also when talking about a "historical" move like the center deal. I talked about the "once" popular game of five card stud and it "was" popular back in the days of Walter Scott and Allen Kennedy. The point of my opinion is that "times" change and it is not popular today.

Times have changed the protocol of many of the games and the rooms and places that they are played in "they have changed over the years over time".

When talking about a card move like the center deal and in my opinion it is a "historical" card move that is almost legend - It is my opinion that one should keep the "time" of Allen Kennedy in mind and "when" he allegedly played cards in mind.

And as I said before I used the center deal in a safe game and it worked. Just as I worked out many punch ideas in a safe game. But as I said before my only interest is to use these ideas for "magic".

The interesting thing to me about the "center deal" is 9 out of 10 guys who demonstrate it lie and really do a second after a lot of shuffle controls LOL.

I have only seen it demonstrated once and didn't think it would survive in an actual game. BUT by the same token I have seen things I would SWEAR would never pass in play, and then been sitting at the table and been fooled by them in "context".

I tend to think it is a magicians move, but am willing to keep an open mind.

Hi Glenn,
is nice talking to you.

Card Cheat,
I'm sorry for my interference. Personally I believe that if the persons you are about to cheat are not looking for something, you can get away with anything. On that note, I don't see why someone with a perfected center deal cannot use it in a favorable environment.

I can not prove a negative and it is beyond my experience that it has been used at the table. The reports of it being used may or not be true. So I am left guessing. Learn it and try it and then you will know! I say to myself, and then I think, it looks a wee bit too risky for me.