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jimmy talksalot
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Payne,

If they are supposed to be societies for magicians they should be magicians.

And if they aren't any of these things you say, I'm assuming it's still more reasonable that a pro would be at least attempting these things instead of an amatuer.

After reading all your posts, I think you have just settled into the idea that this is the way it is now and we should just sit in the muk and settle for it. I'm sorry I just don't feel this way.

and by the by,

magicians do have an obligation to share their knowledge with those that show a sincer desire to learn and can be trusted.

If not that, to leave behind a student or legacy at least. That's being a magician 1-0-1 and if you had been properly instructed in our tradition you would have known that.

If your a pro and aren't doing any thing to help our art just remember this is reflecting on all of us.

We are all aware of the alternatives that unfortunately had to be brought about because of ineptness, but why aren't we trying to fix anything?

one last thing, I don't know what made you think that I was just assuming and had never investigated this opinion or had just pulled it off the top of my head and just blurted out anything my mouth could construct. You see I've been thinking about it my whole life and I'm a traveler and I've found that there is a large body of magi with the same understanding. I mean those that take our art seriously.

You see I might be wrong but I'm not assuming anything. Are you assuming?

I know I'm not the brightest and have been wrong a lot so what ever it was that made you think that, I'm sorry, but please don't let it effect the opinions of the people I've been sticking up for.

Posted: Oct 5, 2007 4:44pm
And they are not supposed to be imparting to "anyone" just themselves.
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Quote:
On 2007-10-05 16:43, jimmy talksalot wrote:
Payne,

If they are supposed to be societies for magicians they should be magicians.


Says who?
What are we then to do with the Collector, the Historian, the Fan and all the other people who make the world of magic what it is but have no desire or aptitude to perform?
Quote:
And if they aren't any of these things you say I'm assuming it's still more reasonable that a pro would be at least attempting these things instead of an amatuer.

These assumptions don't necessarily pan out. As I've said before I know full time working magicians whose advice would be detrimental to follow and amateurs who have much valuable knowledge to impart. Being a Professional Magician is no more a guarantee of being a skilled performer than being the president of a magic club does.
Quote:
after reading all your posts, I think you have just settled into the idea that this is the way it is now and we should just sit in the muk and settle for it....i'm sorry I just don't feel this way.

I've said no such thing. As I've said before your goals are all admiral goals to strive for but what you're seeking needs to be a bottom up change not a top down implementation. I really see no way that the Heads of the various Societies could ever successfully instigate new rules which proclaimed that no Hobbyist was ever to instruct anyone on how to be a Pro, nor make sure that the Professional Magicians in their ranks were actively and correctly instructing the membership with their magical knowledge.
These organizations are after all run pretty much by volunteers. If you start putting excessive requirements on the membership they simply are going to go away and join clubs that better suit their purpose.
We all get the clubs we deserve. We get out of them what we put into them. My club is very active, has a good mix or Pro to non Pro, actively teaches and sponsors lectures, holds special events and provides community service. There is really nothing we as a club can do to make sure any of our sister organizations do the same thing, nor is there any reason we should.
Quote:
and by the by,

magicians do have an obligation to share their knowledge with those that show a sincer desire to learn and can be trusted.

If not that, to leave behind a student or legacy at least. That's being a magician 1-0-1 and if you had been properly instructed in our tradition you would have known that.

if your a pro and aren't doing any thing to help our art just remember this is reflecting on all of us.

Sorry must have missed the memo that said that I was responsible for sharing my knowledge with others. Not that I don't. I have had effects published in many of the major magic journals, Lectured, taught at club meetings and have shared my knowledge with most who ask. I do all of this voluntarily for my own personal reasons not because of someone else's belief that we are some how obligated to do so.
Quote:
we are all aware of the alternatives that unfortunately had to be brought about because of ineptness, but why aren't we trying to fix anything.

You keep referring to these mythical clubs that existed in the halcyon days of yore. Club who were ruled over by benevolent Professionals who carefully tended to their flock of amateurs conjurers. Carefully and thoughtfully guiding their ever move and dolling out their mystical knowledge to only those who truly deserved to acquire such arcane knowledge.
Have you ever ead an old issue of MUM of TLR? The clubds you keep describing NEVER EXISTED. IBM and SAM have always been social, good ol' boy networks which were run pretty much the same way the clubs are run today.
Quote:
One last thing I don't know what made you think that I was just assuming and had never investigated this opinion or had just pulled it off the top of my head and just blurted out anything my mouth could construct. You see I've been thinking about it my whole life and I'm a traveler and I've found that there is a large body of magi with the same understanding. I mean those that take our art seriously.

You keep referring to all of these magi that have the same understanding as you. then why not try to unify these individuals into a cohesive organization and show us all how it's done?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
jimmy talksalot
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Payne,

Once again your post is one big bowl of sunshine. Many have understood my position and disagreed completely and that's fine. But you are not understanding my position and that's fine too. I'm tired of trying to explain, read josh's post or how about you win, ok? You out typed me.
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WOW!!! I read the chapter on the One Big Happy Family in Tommy Wonders Book of Wonders and Jimmy you should read the article. Working pros and magicians that have studied the books, learned the effects, put in the hard work and sweat to perfect them are going to hand over all their hard work to someone who doesn't want to put in the effort. You will get a better response from them if you ask them what book did you learn that from instead of show me how to do that.
Most magic clubs have members who are there for different reasons. The die-hards who come to every meeting and perform, the ones that like to socialize and do a little magic. Then there is a group that comes if there is nothing else going on, after all, where else could I go to be entertained 12 times a year for twenty dollars. There is nothing wrong with any of these scenarios, its what they can give. If you feel that everyone in the club should be as into it as much as you are, then you will be disappointed. Marias letter was right on the mark. I belong to the IBM and have been Sec., V.P., and Pres. I have written newsletters, Ring reports, lectured and performed in club shows, but so have many others in the club. I'm not unique but I find I enjoy the club more if I involve myself in its operation. And when people get involved with their club magic is shared and people have the opportunity to learn something new. Sure, I have run into a few that act like they know more than they do and only hang out with others like them. They are not involved in magic or a clubs business. Don't judge others by their philosopys. Try to enjoy magic and don't let the negative things stress you out.
Best
Abe
JohntheMagician
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Well now where to begin. First off I am in total agreement with the numerous posts that went along the lines of "You Get Out What You Put In". My local Ring was kinda slow and a little dull when I joined a few years ago. The Membership was sagging and a lot of people were just hanging in.

Now while I am not a "Professional" magician, I do have a love of magic and would liek to make it a semi-pro {birthday / busking} hobby as it were. So I and a few others of they slightly younger crowd {22-35} joined up around the same time, and we decided to take matters into our own hands. With the help of the Club President, we got new lectures, some great roundtable discussion groups going, a few workshops up and here it is 2 years later. I have just been elected President, and with a long list of things I want to acomplish have my work cust out for me next year. As long as one person says Hey John nice job I learned something, then I have done my job.

Usually doing things for a group is a thankless job, but your group will never get beter if everyone just sits there and complains and no one actually works at making a difference.

One person acn make a difference if that one person really wants to ...
“The hard must become habit. The habit must become easy. The easy must become beautiful.” ~ Doug Henning
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Bill Palmer
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Jimmytalksalot wrote:
Quote:
eg. there was a rich guy who had studied magic for 1 yr. and bought a huge amount of magic and ran for pres. and won.

Are you referring to a man who was the president of the IBM a few years back, or are you referring to a fellow who was the president of the local ring?

I'm very curious about this reference.

Posted: Dec 29, 2007 2:53am
It looks like Jimmy has dropped out of the discussion. So, I'll tackle this allegation about the "rich guy who had studied magic for 1 yr. and bought a huge amount of magic and ran for pres. and won."

If the reference here is to a fellow who was the International President several years ago, who has one of the largest magic collections in the world, then your information is absolutely false.

The man I'm thinking of has been in magic for a long time. Most people don't know that. He was in the service for several years, an officer, and did shows at the Officers' Clubs at the various bases where he was stationed. After leaving the service, he went to work as an investment banker. He did television commercials for them with is wife as his assistant. He was not the most skilled performer I've seen, but at least he could do the material he presented.

Yep. He's rich. He inherited a business from his father, and seeing that the business supported a lot of families in the area, he left the banking business and learned the new one. He sold his product intensively over a five state area, increasing the business considerably and making it more successful. He also started a magic shop that dealt in vintage magic.

To become the International President of the IBM is not a "run for president and you get it" kind of thing. It takes several years of climbing a ladder of rank to do it. You have to serve as a Territorial Representative. Then you become a Vice President. At that point you run for president. You become president-elect. Then you become president. It's a 3 - 5 year procedure. So the idea that "this rich who had done magic for about a year bought a bunch of magic tricks and ran for president" is purely bogus.

Remember, I'm assuming that Jimmy was referring to this particular fellow, even though most of his argument is gone.

Assuming this is the same fellow, he sponsors lectures in the area where his collection is located, and has devoted a large amount of his time to helping magicians learn about magic and giving them a venue where they can perform at some of the meetings and lectures held at his place.

The main reason he ran for president of the IBM was to help straighten out what he perceived to be some problems with the business aspect of the organization. He ruffled a lot of feathers. Some people don't like to change the way they do things.

But to say that he had done magic for a year and then ran for president and won is silly and ignorant.
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amshake
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The arrogance behind the idea that if you are not a "Full Time Professional Magician" then you are not a magician at all is amazing. That single bit of arrogance invalidates everything you have said.
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mmreed
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I am a person "new to magic" and joined a local ring and have to say that I am very happy with the members and the ring itself. The members meet monthly in a somewhat formal meeting style. We have shows, lectures, and discussions. There are some that show up as part of the "old gang" to socialize, but that's fine - they still offer mentorship. We also meet outside of the normal meeting for magic work, socialization, etc.

Im finding it to be a very warm environment that caters to helping all.
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jimmy talksalot
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Amshake said,

"The arrogance behind the idea that if you are not a "Full Time Professional Magician" then you are not a magician at all is amazing. That single bit of arrogance invalidates everything you have said."

I never said any of that, THAT'S A STRAW MAN.

you sound like you just don't like me and that was the best you could do to sound "right".

if you think I'm arogant I am really sorry, if you ever have the chance to meet anyone who has come into contact with me they will accuse me of being too self consious with a huge lack of confidence in my personal life and that I am too critical of myself and my show. it's not an act infact sometimes I wish I was an arogant person they seem to be natural entertainers.

amshake,

if you don't like someone just say so. if your going to pressume you know what they mean and speak for them make sure you know what they mean or people may think your ill will intentions are transparent......they'll know your just being mean.

Posted: May 31, 2008 11:17am
The reason I have returned to this topic is because in my book, "TO LURE WITH SPECTALCE AND OUR MYSTERIOUS SOCIETY" I have included the feelings of myself and the people I have spoken up for in the opening post of this thread.

the book is split into 2 topics one is the how to's of street performing and the other is the generall consencis of the conduct of magicians.

Posted: Jun 2, 2008 2:19pm
Heres a publisher's link;

http://leapinglizardsmagic.com/lure_with_spectacle.htm

or you can just google it for a retailer
djurmann
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As an observation from a magic wannabe (that's me) and therefore NOT qualified to talk about either the IBM,SAM, Magic Circle, but I believe fully qualified by life experience to make a couple of observations that a believe are pertinent....of course I may just be arrogant ;0) You decide.


1) There is great danger when describing a series of small clubs as a leviathan organisation in which all member clubs are alike. In fact it has already been agreed by both parties that some clubs are very good but that some are more active and supportive than others.

2) Let us assume that a given club is populated with people of average intelligence. If the majority are happy then the club will continue to exist irrespective of negative views inside or outside of the local club. If the majority are NOT happy then they will either enforce change or leave and the club will die. If the club persists then we must assume that the members are happy with it. To assume otherwise is to infer that the members are idiots....which they are not.

3) All this has really shown is that there is a place for people who want to be a member of an organisation and a place for people who don't. Good!

All the best,

Danny
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I also just realised that this thread is 3 years dead.....therefore I am of below average intelligence and an idiot!

D
Dan Bernier
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Quote:
On 2007-09-20 13:45, Josh Riel wrote:
Quote:
On 2007-09-20 13:01, mrunge wrote:

If you are as unhappy with the current state of magic as you appear to be, why not work on changing it and become part of the solution instead of just complaining about it and being stuck in the problem?


Your friend. Mark. Smile


This is exactly what he is trying to do. You might think he's too course in the way he said it, but shortly after his original post a nice lady supported her argument by insulting his spelling. Then we get mad at Jimmy and Eric for being insulting.

I don't understand why it's so hard to understand what Jimmy's saying, he said it in the first post. He even said that his desire was for the magicians to work at bettering the groups.

Of course not that anyone will re-read his post and try to see it from the standpoint of someone genuinely trying to help. You might not like the way someone speaks, but that doesn't make the speech irrelevant.

Anyway, hes a street performer, they are all pretty harsh sometimes. But most of us could learn a lot from Jimmy. I know I do, at the other Café, he writes gold. Fortunately over there we don't have a bunch of guys who are terrified of getting somebody upset by saying anything remotely negative toward the establishment.

Regardless of your opinions on this matter, Jimmy has more experience and more interest in magic, magicians, and our future than most in this whole forum.


Also, there might be 10 out of the 30,000+ people on this forum that would have the guts to actually go on the IBM forum and tell it like he sees it.

And I don't mean like a lot of people who will only say something they feel after several people have already said it, so they don't have to stand out.

Watch every thread. You have people gushing about a product, pages of it. Then one guy has the guts to say "Hey, it aint that great", then all the sudden dozens of guys suddenly get courageous enough to repeat him.....


I just want to say that after reading all the posts, I fully agree with this statement. I first caught the insults and thought to myself, "This is how someone gets treated for sharing his opinions?

"This "ain't", "they suck," "they have digressed from their original glory as a faternity" -- Mr. Talksalot, judging by your avatar on this forum and the choice of verbage (ain't . . . faternity instead of fraternity) I would assume you are not from the charter group of the S.A.M. when it formed in 1902 but rather from a more recent group of those who are into magic at the present time."

What exactly is she insinuating?

I personally think this small attack was unwarranted.

Sure, Jimmy makes a lot of loaded accusations, but picking on him because of his grammar and judging him based on his avatar?

Hey Jimmy, how old would you be if you were part of the charter group of S.A.M when it formed in 1902? (lol)
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Vick
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Doesn't matter if the original post is 3.5 years old approximately

It's still spot on

How many IBS, SAM or what have you ever tell their members they should NOT be performing live for real audiences as their material isn't strong enough and they are not really?

and then really have someone available to tell them what TO READ to help, that can actually take them through the needed steps


How many people get turned down yearly for membership in the IBM?



What puzzles me, this is really one of my favorite ones (Oh I'm sure justifications can flow here)
What is rule 1 ~ something like .....
Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any principles of the Art of Magic, or the methods employed in any magic effect or illusion.

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha
Well why aren't you at the library removing the books on magic there
All the so called secrets of magic ... sitting on a shelf ... FOR FREE!!!!!


How many IBM members get told by the IBM or local rings or what have you not to do a routine because when they do the routine it's exposure?


The secrets of magic are few and far between, ALMOST NONE!!! Almost EVERYTHING IN MAGIC IS FOR SALE!!!
If you can easily buy it .... it's not a secret
Most of "the secrets" have to do with performing, not with actual methods


S.H. Sharpe is a bigger secret than a double lift, IT or about 4,549 effects I can name
and much more important
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Brent McLeod
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I cant believe I wrote on this over 3 yrs ago but things have changed..

Im sure all IBM Clubs have there good & strong points also negative Points..

I know more About Jimmy & what he does & what he believes in.and I love what he does

I too thought Mrs Ibanez original post is a classic response that was totally expected.. predictible..
Ive also resigned about 2 yrs back from the IBM Here in NZ for reasons mainly
outlined in Jimmys original Post as have many good performers locally who are serious busy workers who actually meet privately
and have brainstorming sessions about real life shows, acts, clubs & touring... as a meeting should be but isn't & will never change..
The people are really good but the content & repeat themes year after year at meetings mean missing them doesn't matter...shame

We have 3 clubs in the city -1 is the IBM it charges over $100 a year, rip off,-magazine included, whoppee- meets no more than 6 times -usually 5
never does public shows, every 3 years they do a convention that is actually bettered in between by a local club with 40 kids as members...
However the lectures Provided by visiting Pros are few & far between but appreciated..but we pay for that no worries so why do we need the IBM
Problem here is too many are childrens performers & it dominates everything and the publics perception of local acts which us in the corporate market, University scene, working & touring are always changing the idea that magic for adults works really well etc.......
I guess the mix of Amateur performers & semi Professionals at many clubs worldwide will lead to great clubs & average clubs with People
Jimmy originally talks about

1 day there will hopefully be a level playing field but us as people always think & meet different needs from Maria to Jimmy-cool....
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Rings and Assemblies are what you, the member, make them. One Assembly that I belonged to had three sessions - The first hour was closed to all but working magicians who earned at least half of their annual income through performing. Topics included marketing, promotions, stagecraft and so on. The second hour was open to S.A.M. and Assembly members only and delved more into general magic topics and member-offered mini-lectures. The third hour was opened to guests and prospective members, covered general topics and ended in a social dinner at a local restaurant. A Ring I belonged to offered a general member & guests social gathering at the start of the month then a separate serious worker workshop midmonth.

I'm also a GREAT believer in small, focused mastermind groups of individuals with a common goal that exists outside of the standard social group. These two groups - clubs and masterminds - do not and should not necessarily be independent of one another.

Our top local full-time performers join and support my current local Ring every year - even though we rarely see them at the sessions. We in turn support them as a club when they're supporting a new show or cause. Clubs are more than meetings. They are a microcosm society of shared interests. How those interests are shared is the domain of the members - not some national committee.

In my opinion, the one who turns his back on his less-driven peers, no matter how big or successful he may be, is missing a major support and social environment. Where would any of us be if the successful among us had chosen not to give back to those who shared their passion for this art?

Just sayin'...
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Reuben Dunn
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I had the good fortune, while living in the UK, of discovering Mentalism; finding out that I was rather "good" at it ( a lot better than I was doing,or, rather, attepmpting card effects when I was a teenager.), and then discovering a local magic club, The Coventry Magic Circle, which, if memory serves me correctly, is one of the, if not the, oldest magic societies in the UK.

I was spoiled, although perhaps at the time, I didn't fully realise it.

We met weekly. There were card workers, childrens magicians, a juggler or two, a few who did mentalism, mixed in with their magic, and a few people who didn't perform, but who enjoyed the company.

We held shows at least three times a year, usually at the local schools, they were 50-50 events, i.e., the gate was split in half. I did a five minute mentalism set at such a place, for that five minutes I included the adults who were overlooked given the age range of the kids.

Once a year they did, and probably still do, a charity show for the Mayor of Nuneaton's Annual Appeal. This is a show that the Circle puts on, they invite a local dance studio to send some dancers over, a local singer provides some music, and the group will perform magic.

In that group, when I was involved, there were a few "Pros" who made their living doing this, Semi-Pros who were being booked, and then there was me, a "Hack". A guy who was just doing maybe 1-2 shows every six months.

10 minutes a piece, and we had filled a 500 seat theatre each of the two years that I was involved.

I learned a lot from the men that I associated with on those week nights.

Now, four years since I've been part of such a group, I'm getting back, or rather, am trying to get back, into the swing of things.

I've had one gig last year, a 10-20 minute gig in a few weeks time.

I've also been shoping around for somewhere to "hang my hat".

I've been to one local magic group here in Orange County California, I was at an I.B.M. ring lecture last night (I'm still working out how the ring is listed as being a "Long Beach" ring, when it's located in Seal Beach. But then again, the Coventry Magic Circle hasn't met in Coventry in over 20+ years, so I guess things balance out somehow.), and I'm planning on heading to Irvine at the end of the month to attend another ring.

I'm looking for a place that has, to some extent, the same "warmth" that I had in Coventry. The biggest difference is that none of the rings meet more than once a month. A bit of a culture shock for me.

I'm looking for a group that will perhaps do more than just hire "Pros" to lecture. I do enjoy these events, but I'm looking for something more than that. A group of people who may want to perform, or, if they're not good enough, or don't have that interest level, who could provide whatever back up/support for those in the group who do perform, either on a "Pro" level, or on my level. (BTY, my use of the term "Hack" in describing myself should in no way infer that I'm not any good. I've been fortuniate to have all of the bookings, with the exception of two, that I've done in the UK, come as a result of word of mouth.)

Sadly, after visiting the ring on the 19th, and one earlier in the week, I suspect that perhaps my experiences in the Coventry Magic Circle were possibly limited to the UK. I hope not. But at the same time I'm loathe to do a drive accross Southern California in search of that Holy Grail.

The magic club I went to during the week on kind of reminds me of what the Circle was for me in the UK. Who know where that part of my journey will take me.

Clubs are what you make of it.

I agree.

I'm just hoping that the I.B.M. rings that I do come across will, at some level, be able to help me, and, truth be told, will proivde me with what I am looking for, and with what I was used to while in the UK.
Good Thoughts.


Reuben Dunn


www.reubendunn.com
Brent McLeod
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Quote:
On 2011-03-13 12:35, Skip Way wrote:

In my opinion, the one who turns his back on his less-driven peers, no matter how big or successful he may be, is missing a major support and social environment. Where would any of us be if the successful among us had chosen not to give back to those who shared their passion for this art?

Just sayin'...


Good Points by Skip-I remember the feeling of going to my first meeting when I was 12 or 13
it was as you say a real Experience thanks to the older members-we need to keep that Magic alive.....
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