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JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts 
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I've heard that cups and balls magic came from the three shells game.
Would appreciate if I could get accurate facts on how and when the three shell game evolved to the 3 cups and balls. Who were the people involved in this transition? Thanks in advance |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts
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It wasn't me.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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sethb Inner circle The Jersey Shore 2719 Posts
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I have no facts to support this theory, but it seems to me that the Cups & Balls is a much older trick than the Shell Game, and that one is not related to the other. I've seen lithographs and engravings that take the Cups & Balls back to the Middle Ages if not farther. On the other hand, the Shell Game doesn't seem to appear until the 1800's or so.
Also, the Cups & Balls is about making several balls appear, disappear and penetrate the covering containers, usually with one or more surprise loads as a finale. The Shell Game only uses one pea, and is basically a guessing game, a variation or derivation of "Thimble Rig", which used thimbles to cover the pea. The method behind each effect is also completely different. So I think we are looking at apples and oranges here (no pun intended). But I'd be interested to know the source of your information, James, and also if anyone else can shed some light on this. Bill Palmer, where are you when we need you? SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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As best I recall...the earliest record I know of describes a guy taking some stones out of a bag having then examined then taking out some bowls and causing the balls to appear and vanish under the bowls then to vanish and be found out among the audience in amusing places.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Stevethomas Inner circle Southern U.S.A. 3728 Posts
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Pete, of course it wasn't you...it was Bill Palmer who performed this the first time ever in history!
Steve |
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JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-09-06 14:52, sethb wrote: Sethb, I don't have any documented facts on it. I have been reading a lot of things about cups and balls, at the Café and other places, and I remember someone saying about what I posted. Not sure I read it or interpreted the post correctly. This thread is the reason I would like to verify from knowledgeable cups and balls workers here. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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James, I suspect the origins of the three cups and three balls routine come from montebanks I have yet to find any literature to support this notion.
Here's my hypothesis: The grifters learned that it serves to have an extra ball in play when doing the "find the ball under the cups" bit. Then when/if busted by the local authorities they would start loading extra balls under the cups to blow off the gambling aspect and claim they were just offering harmless entertainment. IMHO the three cups routine has at least one root in that world. Another root with the stones and bowl as recorded by the Roman traveller seems to bear directly upon what we have as the Bowl routine and its varient, the Chop-Chop cup trick.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-09-07 08:10, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Thanks, Jonathan. I am really into learning the origins of the cups and balls. Any literature recommended? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Bill Palmer and I have cited the ancient letter from a traveler describing the street entertainer he met. It's quoted in the Farelli book on John Ramsay's Cups and Balls routine.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts
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When Bob Read's collected works is published you will know.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-09-07 19:57, Pete Biro wrote: Good, we have more valuable materials coming out. When is the launching date? Any idea? |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24315 Posts
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I'll answer these questions one at a time.
1) The game in which an object is found under one of several covers probably predates the cups and balls by quite a while. The American Indians used games like this as part of a ceremony. Also, the letter from Alciphron of Athens describes a person performing a routine much like a shell game. When I had the acetabula made for me, I discovered almost instantly that they were perfect for a shell game type of work. The secret move that is associated with a shell game occurs almost automatically with these cups. Ronald Wohl, who is arguably one of the foremost authorities on the shell game agrees with this assessment. 2) The Bob Read book is going to come out when it's ready. When that is depends on Richard Kaufman, Volker Huber and Pauline Read.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-09-07 08:10, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Jonathan, is this the actual historical turn from shell games to cups and balls? Quote:
On 2007-09-08 22:38, Bill Palmer wrote: Thanks, Bill, for the answers. Do you have any idea or supporting literature where the shell games took a turn to cups and balls? How did it happened? What made it happened? In which era did this event took place? |
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Mark R. Williams Regular user 193 Posts
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The Kurt Volkmann book "The Oldest Deception" has some VERY INTERESTING history and facts on Cups & balls.
While copies are hard to find the effort is worth it. I believe someone has it in E-book form. regards, mark Posted: Sep 9, 2007 8:06pm I forgot to add that the book, "The Oldest Deception" is largely about the Cups & Balls as pictured in 15th & 16th century art. but it has some fascinating information on the subject of the cups & balls and their importance to the medieval times.
"One more step on the pathway of Knowledge, that is if we don't break our leg crossing the street"
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-09-09 12:10, JamesTong wrote: James, I am taking a "best guess" given my understanding of human nature which has not changed over the millenia and also the data I have from the Epistle and fragmentary evidence of the ancient props as described and the environment in which our art developed. I can't claim my projection as factual though do find it sufficiently satisfactory from a human nature perspective to post it as a hypothesis open for review and comparison against any evidence found in legitimate historical findings such as letters describing the street performers and swindlers and props or instructional data to be found. BTW there is a very nice short and suggestive routine performed in the movie "Time Bandits" which pretty much parallels my thoughts about where things got started.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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MagiClyde Special user Columbus, Ohio 871 Posts
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Don't know if this would help, but I do have a PDF file titled "Cups & Balls in the 18th Century". Would anyone be interested in a copy?
Magic! The quicker picker-upper!
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts
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Yeo,,, PLEASE send to petebiro@aol.com
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-09-09 22:10, clynim wrote: Thanks for the offer, clynim. Just sent you a PM. Quote:
On 2007-09-09 19:25, Mark R. Williams wrote: Thanks, Mark. I hope I am able to get a copy of it. Would be very useful for my study. Jonathan, Thanks. I'll get my hands on the movie 'Time Bandits'. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24315 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-09-09 22:10, clynim wrote: Is this Sean McWeeney's e-book? Posted: Sep 11, 2007 4:01am I don't think there was a "turn" from the shell game to the cups and balls or vice-versa. I think there was a parallel evolution. It depended solely upon the operator. There are few historical periods in which you can say "on April 14, 1256, the cups and balls developed into the shell game." All we know of is what we read in the historical literature and what we see in the graphics. There is nothing else. The mountebanks used the cups and balls to draw people in so they would buy products. Bob Read covered this thoroughly in his video clips in the Michael Ammar DVD's. The evidence for this in graphics is very convincing. BTW, some people think the painting on Tomb 15 at Beni Hasan may show someone playing "thimble-rig". To see more about that go to http://www.cupsandballsmuseum.org/benihasan.htm .
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts
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Thanks, Bill.
What literature would you recommend for indepth study on the historical developments of the cups and balls, and shell games? Are they still on sale now? |
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Posted: Sep 6, 2007 06:05 pm 
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