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Rory Diamond New user 69 Posts |
Don't get me wrong- I am not challenging that Blaney came up with that mechanical hoop that you can pass over a gimmick, that could very well be. I am talking about the suspension tricks themselves- And he may have developed the method in which the ladders hide the gimmick on the step ladder suspension (however, like I posted before, I have heard this attributed to Joe Karson by a reputable party). But that Suspension 3000 with the hollowed out supports which you pull to the rear are exactly the same as the version in the Gywnne book. And, in it's basic form, they are all just another version of the SUPER-X. Even Jim Steinmeyer's Balloon Levitation in "Device and Illusion" is another modified example of the SUPER-X. So where do these guys get off at?
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-09-12 17:29, Starrpower wrote:...I think Townsend's post is very telling; he seems to think "personalizing" something is evolution. ... If that's what you interpreted then I need to do better. If you read old books and find something you want to explore and find a way to make it work for your shows etc then you have brought that item up to date. The "credit" and all that stays where you found it for what you found IMHO.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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enginemagic Special user Bluffton Indiana 597 Posts |
Stealing wrong when you hurt,harm ,or deprive someone of what is theirs especially a phisical item.the issue of a trick/story can be hard because two minds that never met can think of the same thing. I seen three of my ideas show up in the mass media/market.When I do a magic move I learned in a book & share it with freinds & other magicians I give the creator of that move credit for it as I see other magicians in videos & books giving credit to the creator.You can have a combo trick as one I do using the bobo switch for a crushed spark plug trick I come up with.It starts with showing a spark plug to someone then tossing it in the other hand a couple of times ,then I switch it out for another with the tip smashed then quickly I put it in my teeth to look like I`m smashing the tip then showing to the person.they say woa what a strong bite!!So I used bobos move for my method using the move.
theres a lot to learn out there,many interesting subjects,and hobbies to enjoy
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
I originally created this thread it was not to argue whether stealing is right or wrong; I was pointing out the hypocrisy among magic when it comes to stealing. "Name" entertainers can get away with it, and magicians even make excuses for them, while lesser-known acts will get blasted for the most minor of infractions. J. Townsend, you may have misinterpreted my post, as well. I was referring to how magicians respond to such "updates," and not whether or not they are unethical.
Quote:
On 2007-09-11 22:22, Jonathan Townsend wrote: What does that even mean? Are you saying that somehow the blowhard self-appointed magic authorities I mentioned are like "parents" to other magician? I don't get your point. Please speak plainly and not in confusing metaphors. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
If someone's parents and teachers did not teach them not to steal then it's not likely anyone else will even bother, and instead they may face less civil consequences and possibly censure. We have some in our community who at least try to remind folks about propriety before giving up and letting the wolves have at.
Since how one reacts and responds to malefactors is an adult issue further discussion of that side of the issue is not appropriate to the café. Plain enough?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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enginemagic Special user Bluffton Indiana 597 Posts |
Good parents are priceless.your very blessed to have them,like I had.learning a lot fron church helps also.Small town living a good place for your kids,I keped busy with learning & mechanical hobbies to keep out of trouble.my hobby of repairing many things around the home became my career.
theres a lot to learn out there,many interesting subjects,and hobbies to enjoy
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-09-12 17:49, Josh Riel wrote: How about the Dream Police?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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gardini Regular user Cornwall, Ontario, Canada 158 Posts |
I'm a bit confused If I took and old trick, say Robert-Houdin's Shower Of Treats, for instance, made improvements on it and created a nice routine with it, wouldn't it be mine to sell at that point?
I only ask because it seems to me half of the new tricks out there are reworking of old tricks or concepts or even worse established magicians teaching someone else's trick, even if the creator is long since dead. Scott |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
IMHO, the routine as a play (script) yes.
The new mechanics ... since the originator is long dead and the original mechanics is in books which are so old as to have gone into the public domain I feel it's justifiable to sell the thing though IMHO it's very important to cite the sources one is working from and where possible keep the originals around for reference.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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gardini Regular user Cornwall, Ontario, Canada 158 Posts |
It seems to me with the shear amount of effects that are out there in public domain, that most of the tricks today can be trace directly to someone else, weather its handing, mechanics, patter or concepts.
So why is there a big arguement about ethics, when most of us convert a concept from someone else, use it in a show or sell it. I'm sure the dia vernon tricks on Daryls foolers Doolers that vernons family did not get roylaties from it, or did anyone cry fowl to Copperfield when he did the dancing ties instead of blackstones dancing hanky. Scott |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
It's just coming out that Vernon's Triumph is something the photographer Mr Karger worked out and let's not even talk about what some magic marketers are doing with living magicians material without permission. Can you believe somebody thought it would be okay to start selling one of Steve Dusheck's tricks without so much as asking they guy?
I'm not even going to start on the folks who've been messing with some of my work both in print or selling mechanical versions of one of the tricks. That would take us into the horrors of what happens when folks copy not just tricks but aesthetic approaches to doing tricks... and that's for another time. As things stand we don't have a royalties (for use, publication, performance) system in place in magic. As to what's in the public domain (legalists kindly replace with "common knowlege"), by definition NOTHING in magic can be in the public domain. No concept, idea, trick NOTHING. One of the oaths we take when starting magic is to keep our data (ideas etc) out of the public domain As to what's in the commons of our craft, pretty much anything in print (released by the inventor - not some exposer) and any material which as long outlived its inventor. But being in the commons does not necessarily warrant or justify its being repackaged WITH A CLAIM OF NOVELTY OR ORIGINALITY by someone who is not a delegate of the inventor or their estate.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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gardini Regular user Cornwall, Ontario, Canada 158 Posts |
I think weather the magician is alive or not that created the effect should not have a baring on the ethics of changing and selling the effect. Bottom line If I spent the amount of hours to make the trick my own by finding a (easierbettermore modren for example) wouldnt the effect therefore be mine to sell.
Scott |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
If you don't have permission to "do" a trick in the first place you should not.
If you don't have permission to sell your version of the trick... I also feel you should not. Quote:
on 2007-09-14 11:45, gardini wrote: That's pretty much like the milkman asking if he can name your kids. IMHO it's closer to the milkman claiming it's okay to "do" your kids and sell the pictures but again... just my perspective.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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gardini Regular user Cornwall, Ontario, Canada 158 Posts |
I totally agree with what you have been saying, I've been playing devils advocate today because in seems to me there's a lot of so called creators and stores that sure could use a lesson in who owns the materials that they been selling. I think at the very least they should site the inspiration.
Scott |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Either the effect is different or not. Saying "they are exactly the same, except for one or two differences" is the same as saying "they are not the same". I'm not going to bother pointing out the differences right after you tell me you already know what they are. As for the magic police, I know of no magic organization with the power to effect my employability as a magician, nor my access to the various trade information I need to work in this industry. Anyone else is welcome to voice their opinion to the back of my head. When I speak of ethics, I know that what I say is easily ignorable, and the fact is, I am only speaking to those who care. I speak with the intent that each person should attempt to do what is right, and that we, as a community, should place a positive influence on others to do the same. However, if I thought we should have laws pertaining to this subject, I would be working on grass roots campaigning and not posting in forums. Now, tell me again who these "magic police" are and why you care, AT ALL, what their opinion is?
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-09-14 02:01, Dannydoyle wrote: Gotta love Cheap Trick! To keep this magic related, I always used to see Rick Nielsen's son and mother (the kid's grandma) at the magic shop in Rockford. |
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Rory Diamond New user 69 Posts |
Speaking of magic police, how about this big clique in Hollywood that faced bankruptcy several times, called THE MAGIC CASTLE. What a bunch of cronies who self-appointed themselves as magic authorities. I know plenty of very good performers who have tried to submit videos and contact them for work, and they just blow you off if you are not in thier "good ole' boys club".
Entertainment director Ron Wilson would never return anyone's calls and would block e mails from anyone who tried to get booked there, unless you were referred by someone in the "clique". I was there on two different occasions and thought it was just OK, mainly snooty, condescending magic performed for other magicians, the kind that lay people don't care for at all. Had to sit through that "living Cartoon" act, which has nothing to do with magic, is just a juvenile prop comic act that isn't funny enough for the Comedy Club Circuit. I also heard they don't pay well, but act like they are doing you a big favor to work there- as if you are lucky to be graced by their presence. (Who cares anyway? do you think IBM is going to hire you for a trade show because it says you worked the Castle on your promo material?) I am disappointed when I see artists like Criss Angel, who get their first notoriety by their own efforts, but then later on "buy into" hanging with that Castle crowd. I have seen episodes of Mindfreak that were filmed at the Castle-the Magic Castle would have never hired Criss Angel if he was a nobody, and had just sent in a video. In fact, his video would go on the pile with 10,000 other promo videos that they ignore. I have to applaud Copperfield on this, I don't ever remember seeing him promoting the Castle. It seems as if he tries to distance himself from it. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The Magic Castle is a nice dinner club where you can get to see some top notch magic performed live.
No comment about the credibility of the place or any group in that place but at least they do a nice job of offering a venue.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
No kidding ... there are some really lame acts that appear there.
It's really too bad that they have their foot in the door with Hollywood, because they really are an arrogant bunch. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I heard something about that place that scared me from wanting to visit when I visited the area. That some guy was claiming the right to be exclusive in performing the cups and balls there. Cringe.
But they do get folks like David Regal and recently Jason Alexander performed there so it's not all entirely bad and scary. Also heard that the building and the club aspect is a nice place to hang out even though Vernon is not holding court there anymore.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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