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Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2007-09-12 12:34, Payne wrote:

Fortunately my "godchild" is taking after his parents and at eight is already quite secure in his secular beliefs.


Hi Payne:

Which "god"?

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Payne
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On 2007-09-12 14:28, Terry Holley wrote:

Which "god"?

Terry




Probably Thoth as he's the god of Science and Writing. Since his parents pen and paint a comic book set in a world run by mad scientists he would be the most appropriate deity to pay homage to.

The title of Godparent is an inside joke since there really isn't a secular version of the word. My wife and myself will become the children's legal guardians in case of their parents untimely demise. An honor bestowed upon us because they trusted to bring their kids up in the same secular surroundings that they are familiar with and wouldn't sell them into servitude to the first bottle washer that came along.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Terry Owens
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Evangelism to a true disciple of Christ is not optional. There are some things I may not like or want because I don't see the need nor the benefit, but that doesn't mean I don't need it. There's not one person on the face of this earth that doesn't need to hear the Gospel message...not one.

I'm a pastor and there are people in my church that don't feel comfortable with what I do, but not one of them has won, one person to the Lord this summer, but through the use of illusion, I've seen over 300 come to the Lord this summer and many from homes where the parents don't attend a church at all.

If your local church doesn't feel comfortable, that's okay, there's opportunities outside of your church that you can use your giftings and talents to evangelize.

Terry
Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-09-12 18:16, Terry Owens wrote:

I'm a pastor and there are people in my church that don't feel comfortable with what I do, but not one of them has won, one person to the Lord this summer, but through the use of illusion, I've seen over 300 come to the Lord this summer and many from homes where the parents don't attend a church at all.



It sounds to me though that conversions took place in a place of worship or at an event specifically held for this purpose. Much like Andre Kole is brought in by local churches to spread the Gospel. People attend these of their own free will (a topic of debate for another thread) hopefully most of the time knowing that the event is being sponsored by a religious organization and there will be some form of proselytizing or tithing involved. This is a whole lot different than going around the neighborhood and preying (praying?) on kids by using magic as a vehicle for preaching.
Really, if someone wants to find god I'm sure they won't have any difficulty doing so as there are certainly is no shortage of churches to find him in. Those of us wishing to keep our children and ourselves out of such organizations should be allowed to do so in peace and not have our evenings spoiled by some one with a handful of pamphlets ringing our doorbell.

But this is getting off the topic.

So, show the neighborhood kids regular magic and keep the gospel stuff for Sunday School Shows
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
m15d1r3ct10n
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Quote:
On 2007-09-12 18:54, Payne wrote:

This is a whole lot different than going around the neighborhood and preying (praying?) on kids by using magic as a vehicle for preaching.



I can respect your opinions. but I cannot respect that remark about preying. That is far from what it is from. Look no one here has challenged or insulted your beliefs. So, please don't do that to us. Besides this is a Christian Forum, and I don't understand why you being athiest, (I think that is what your beliefs are, please let me know if I am mistaken.) would be here telling us that we are wrong for evagelizing, that is what we believe in. I am just happy knowing that when the end comes, I will be living with my father in heaven, and my brother Jesus, and be reunited with all the people that have left me behind on this earth, that I dearly miss. That is why I do what I do, and believe what I believe. I want to be with God in the end.
Payne
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No insult meant, just couldn't resist the pun. It's my dry sense of humour.

I will let you know though that sometimes though we feel like prey. Especially if you get targeted by a certain church or set of missionaries. I've had friends who literally were visited on a weekly basis by people overly concerned for their salvation. It gets annoying, especially after you've told them in no uncertain terms that you're really not interested.
I understand that most people mean well and only want to share the good news with others but for us non believers it gets really old very quickly.

I'm not telling you that you are wrong for evangelizing, I'm just trying to say there is a proper time and place for it and that preaching to other peoples children without the parents consent is probably not the greatest of ideas. Especially these days when we live in a lot less of a homogeneous culture and everyone you meet might not share or welcome your belief structure.

I'm very happy that you're going to get to meet Jesus and spend eternity with all those people that have left you behind. For me I'm satisfied knowing that there is nothing but oblivion awaiting for me upon my death. I wasn't at all troubled by my non existence before I was born, I see no reason to be bothered by it after I'm dead.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
smithpaul60
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Maybe I shouldn't jump in here but I'm going to because I feel constrained to.

No insult may have been meant but to joke about someones beliefs is not polite.

What payne is saying is that he dosen't appreciate when "christians" (there are many different types) preach to him. He dosen't like when others push their beliefs.

What I don't understand is why he is here. By joining a converstion that is geared toward other christians he is implicitly agreeing with the ideas of the purpose of this forum. THIS fourm (BCM) is where christan magi gather to discuss their BELIEFS and sucesses/failures in gospel magic. Otherwise there are plenty of other forums here at the Café to discuss simple magic.

The other arguement is that through his posting he is "pushing" his beliefs as well. The exact thing he says he dosen't like.

In a christian belief system Payne is wrong. Read the last chapter of Matthew, "Go and preach my gospel." Christ did not say to those who want you to. (nobody WANTS to be bothered) Think about the first 15 apostles (including those who were added in after others had passed) all died Horrific deaths at the hands of people who didn't want to be preached to. But that didn't stop them. This form wouldn't be here if it had.

I'm not saying go out and tick people off until you are killed but I am saying DO NOT STOP , EVER. Show your beliefs through your thoughts, actions, words, and magic. Always be a witness for Christ. ALWAYS.

Mis, here is my advise for you.

"I am just really trying to figure out a way to use my hobby for a good cause. Not for money, nor fame, but to share and have fun. "

This quote is the center of your question.
1. Isn't your bond with your son (stepson, it dosen't matter because he is your son now.) worth the price already. That is a reason enough. God dosen't work on our timetable. His purpose for you might just to be a guiding infulence for your son.

2. Don't do anything akin to lying. That includes lying by ommission. Sleight of hand is NOT a sin. Don't tell your church anything other tan that you do gospel magic. Most people who are against it have never seen or experinced it. Put some shows on in a seperate venue, let them know they will come around eventually. Ingorance does not make them right.

3. Never preach to a minor without their parents knowing that it is the primary reason for your magic. When advertizing your show be sure to make it clear that it is GOSPEL magic with the intent ot teach of christ.

4. Never, Never, Never, Never, change who you are (unless it is against the principles of the gospel) for anyone who disagrees with you. Treat them respectfully but always know who you are, YOU ARE A CHILD OF GOD.
Genuis@work

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Payne
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On 2007-09-13 09:50, smithpaul60 wrote:

Mis, here is my advise for you.

"I am just really trying to figure out a way to use my hobby for a good cause. Not for money, nor fame, but to share and have fun. "

This quote is the center of your question.
1. Isn't your bond with your son (stepson, it dosen't matter because he is your son now.) worth the price already. That is a reason enough. God dosen't work on our timetable. His purpose for you might just to be a guiding infulence for your son.

2. Don't do anything akin to lying. That includes lying by ommission. Sleight of hand is NOT a sin. Don't tell your church anything other tan that you do gospel magic. Most people who are against it have never seen or experinced it. Put some shows on in a seperate venue, let them know they will come around eventually. Ingorance does not make them right.

3. Never preach to a minor without their parents knowing that it is the primary reason for your magic. When advertizing your show be sure to make it clear that it is GOSPEL magic with the intent ot teach of christ.

4. Never, Never, Never, Never, change who you are (unless it is against the principles of the gospel) for anyone who disagrees with you. Treat them respectfully but always know who you are, YOU ARE A CHILD OF GOD.


Which was exactly what I was saying
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
smithpaul60
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On 2007-09-13 09:50, smithpaul60 wrote:
YOU ARE A CHILD OF GOD.


trust me you were NOT saying that!
Genuis@work

We're trying to adopt. Visit us HERE
m15d1r3ct10n
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Thanks everyone for your input. But I am starting to sence the start of a battle hear which could turn ugly. I have recieved much input from everyone, and thank-you so much!!! But since things are starting to heat up I have decided I am going to refrain from this subject anymore. How about if we all agree we all had a very good discussion, go our seperate ways and start thinking about a new topic to discuss? Again thank-you eveyone and God bless.
Terry Holley
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I enjoy having Payne around here just like I enjoy inviting and having atheists and agnostics visit my church.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Payne
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Hey, if we were all believers who would you guys get to evangelize to? Smile
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
David McCall
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On 2007-09-10 17:52, m15d1r3ct10n wrote:
I went to an Encounter at my church. First off let me say that it was great and refreshing for me to get back with God. I was re-baptized, since I did it when I was 8. I thought it was nessasary. Too anyone out there who gets and invited or has the oppotunity to go to an encounter GO!!! it will be wonderful. But, When I was there and talking with my group I asked them about magic. I made sure they specifically knew that it was not black magic or sorcery, but illusionary magic like we do. I was told that it was wrong for me to do it cuz I was opening doors in myself for the enemy to try to come in by. I was also told it can give a false impression of myself which also opens doors into my soul. I don;t want to stop doing magic it is a great hobby and great fun for me. My son and I have a very significant bond thru magic. It gives us something to do together that we can keep secret from other people. It's kind of like a special thing that we share together and perform together at times but we keep the secret of the tricks between us. He is my step-son. And I feel magic was one of the things that helped create a strong bond between us with. Where we follow the magicians code toghether. What are your opinions on this. Please help me with the dilemma in my mind I am facing


I had a guy once scream at me and call me a demon spawn right to my face. I made a joke about being Presbyterian, and we just ignored it. Afterword, I became tired of him following me around and insulting me, so I quickly and quietly pulled him to the side, and quickly explained what I'm about, my intentions in magic, etc. And strangest thing is, he now seems to think it's cool. Lol. He actually announces me now as "the magic guy" and we're on friendly terms.

It just took me that moment to get a tiny bit out of my comfort zone and have a frank discussion with the guy.

If you'd like a verse to think about, this section has been a long time favorite: 1st Corinthians 12, 1-31; at first, it may not always seem to apply; but I feel like it applies fairly well. We all have our spiritual gifts, and they are different, whether it's music (ya ever hear Chrisian Rock Musicians? I'm sure plenty of people tell them the same thing they tell you).

Think of these gospel effects as parables. You're telling a story in order to prove a point about the goodness of God.


If you're doing it with a good heart, and you're not hurting other people's spiritual health, then no worries. It's gotten you to bond with your son in a positive way, and perhaps it's gotten (or will get him (and you)) closer to God than you can imagine.

There will always be people out there who will judge you. But ultimately, it's between you and God. That's what matters.
karbonkid
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God loves everybody. Even magicians.
Silly Walter the Polar Bear
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Magicians should be fed to the lions. Ok, maybe just the mentalists.
Sociomagi
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I enjoy having Master Payne around too!

Just my two cents Smile

Peter
Belief is the biggest step man can make!
grant_gilson
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Master Payne:

I too did not believe there was an after life (in my younger years). I changed my mind - and I pray you will too.

I have used the good old scotch & soda for 'gospel magic'. I show the silver coin as the 'good' part of the person and the copper coin as the 'bad' part of the person. Then I put both (?) coins in their hand and state I have a coin that will 'take away' the 'bad' coin. Then I wave a 10 commandment coin (livingwaters.com) above their closed fist and ask them to open their hand-the bad coin is gone!! Then I give them the 10 commandment coin. I have given away hundreds of coins - mostly to children - usually right in front of their parents- and never, nerver had one complaint. You can reach many people this way.
grant
Payne
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Quote:
On 2007-09-26 19:21, grant_gilson wrote:
Master Payne:

I too did not believe there was an after life (in my younger years). I changed my mind - and I pray you will too.

I have used the good old scotch & soda for 'gospel magic'. I show the silver coin as the 'good' part of the person and the copper coin as the 'bad' part of the person. Then I put both (?) coins in their hand and state I have a coin that will 'take away' the 'bad' coin. Then I wave a 10 commandment coin (livingwaters.com) above their closed fist and ask them to open their hand-the bad coin is gone!! Then I give them the 10 commandment coin. I have given away hundreds of coins - mostly to children - usually right in front of their parents- and never, nerver had one complaint. You can reach many people this way.
grant


That's a very nice and light handed presentation that even I would have no problem with someone showing to my child (if I had one) as long as they were in my presence. It's a good way to teach the child that people do good things for all sorts of different reasons.
I just have trouble with the heavy handed scare tactics I've seen used by people proclaiming you're going to burn in hell for all eternity if you fail to accept their deity as yours.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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