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Amazing Rundi New user 35 Posts |
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On 2008-04-19 20:18, The Donster wrote: Wolflock last posted on March 3rd. It is not important that the video has to be finished already. I merely made the point that it doesn't appear to be happening at all. |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
WOW! 23!! You're on a roll! This is so educational and uplifting I can hardly sit still!
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Amazing Rundi New user 35 Posts |
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If you are talking in general terms, then by filming with an infra red camera. Quote:
And if duplicated in the dark on video, why bother? To prove that such phenomena can be perfectly replicated by trickery. Quote:
For me, it doesn't matter where I work. If you hire me to do the show, it can be in the US, the UK, New Zealand, or anywhere in between. Travel costs are always built into my contracts. I assume that both Mr. Thompson and I are native English speakers, so it would be easier to do in an English-speaking country. My passport is up to date, though I haven't had to use it since January. Yes, but that would cost an awful lot of money! ;-) If I was rolling in cash, then I would take you up on your offer. Quote:
Also, I wouldn't insist on it being in the dark. The only people who do that are frauds. That is merely your opinion. Quote:
I've long considered doing a seance, where blindfolds are put onto the sitters, and the rest of the audience can see everything. We could certainly put blindfolds onto anyone who didn't want to know what was going on. Darren Brown did a TV program over here in the UK where they filmed a seance in infra red to show how it was done by trickery. Unfortunately, the phenomea produced fraudulently bore no relation to what actually happens in modern seance rooms in the UK at the moment. So, it was NOT an exact duplication. Quote:
BTW Rundi, if you're interested in the history of this, do a web-search on "shaking tent ritual", and you'll find quite a few references to the precursor of Spiritualistic seance. It was a ritual of every tribe that spoke an Algonquian language, from Labrador to the west coast of North America. I have no doubt that it passed into Euro-american culture, in the mid 1800s, in the region of Rochester NY. However, I realize that I'll probably never find the name of the person(s) who were the intermediaries. After all, it's the sort of information that a fraud wouldn't have wanted publicized. Also, at that time, the concept that Native Americans were noble, wasn't a commonly accepted belief. To have it known that one associated with Indians, would have made one suspect. One of the main goals of a medium, is to have their audiences NOT ask questions. At least, not the important ones. Thank you very much. I will read that. Quote:
You could also look up the biography of the Davenport Brothers. While supposedly tied up, inside a cabinet, they smashed guitars over the heads of audience members, among other things. I could duplicate their show, with only enough research to make a cheat-sheet, so that I wouldn't forget and leave something out. Their technique passed to me through only three intermediate generations of performers. For further knowledge of their preferred method of restraint, search "Kellar Tie". Interesting. Tell me, could you reproduce this: A small room with the sitter's chairs placed against all the walls. A table placed in the centre of the circle about 1 metre from the sitter's legs. There are NO trap doors or hidden entrances. The door is locked with a chair against it. The medium has never been in the room before, nor does he have an accomplice. Each of his hands are held and so are his feet. This is done before the lights are switched off. This control is maintained until the end of the seance. Phenomena: Two luminous trumpets fly incredibly fast around the room and between the sitter's heads. The distance the trumpets reach is about 3 metres away from one another on each side of the room. Could you replicate this, exactly as I have described? Thank you. |
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Harley Newman Inner circle 5117 Posts |
Yes, I could do it right now, though my technique would be rough. Seance is far removed from my regular repetoire.
I was shown a technique for the hand-holding, many years ago, by a very old man, who'd done seances all his life. To look at him, you would have expected total honesty. His sincerity was completely true. But it was also part of his show, and he'd made a lot of money over the course of his career. I don't think he'd ever been exposed. The whole idea of restraining the medium, is to demonstrate that they should be incapable of performing the phenomena of the seance. To me, the interesting part isn't the phenomena. But the trumpets are a nice touch. You've already answered how they're done.
“You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus” -Mark Twain
www.bladewalker.com |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
Sorry. But isn't this the escapology section? I believe the chest thumping and the spiritulism sections are elsewhere.....
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Harley Newman Inner circle 5117 Posts |
Escapes are the secularized version of an important element of seance. Although a number of historical performers used them, prior to 1850, they were few and far between.
I think we can thank Kellar for bringing them out of the dark, so to speak. He and some of the Fays worked for the Davenports, at a time in their respective careers. Weiss built on their foundations, and stole the limelight with them. Chest thumping? Really? Chance, if I asked whether you could get out of a straitjacket, I suspect you'd say yes. And if you did it in the dark, maybe somebody would think you had powers! Would that make you a chest thumper too? BTW, it was good talking with you, the other day.
“You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus” -Mark Twain
www.bladewalker.com |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
Me? A strait jacket? You give me wayyy too much credit! LOL
Ditto Harley. Just trying to inject a bit of levity. You didn't really think any of my comments were directed at you did you? How can I ever score a free sofa that way?!? |
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Kondini Inner circle 3609 Posts |
Think its time to stop the feeding.
People with no name or identity,are people without substance. I do not hide behind four walls playing games on a pc or pretend to have knowledge about things I have not. If anyone has a problem with me, they can find me out in the open this is not the place for nitpicking or castigating those who are not around. So Mr Hide put yourself out to be counted, if not, crawl back behind your mask, I will not treat a fixation as an equal, you have had enough slack, put up or shut up. Ken |
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dave_matkin Inner circle 4522 Posts |
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On 2008-04-19 20:40, Amazing Rundi wrote: NOTE the OR OTHER PERFORMER not ONLY magicians. Yes there are some magicians on this group - but also some just escape people. Do you know you are very selective about what you post ... you use quotes to make your points seem more real. I respect you for that - not had any training as a layer have you? They are clever at using quotes as well. You also make assumptions! You asked me if the video showed him escaping from a chair as in the original question - then go on to assume that it does not. I am going to do you a massive favour! send me / post the video that we need to reproduce and I will start work on it as soon as I look at the video - as I am a supply teacher with laryngitis I am not working right now - so I can tackle it like a "hobby" rather than a job. I will not show methods to an outsider though. Once you prove you r interest in escapology to be genuinely for further development of the art of escape I will share with you the method as well. Oh by the way the scenario was just a point that there are 24 hours in a day and one COULD hypothetically POST a message (or send a PM) on a chat group in the morning and be dead by the time someone else in another time zone replied* to it. *reply - I mean either by posting a message on the board, sending a PM to their inbox on said forum, or to another private email, talking to them using a telephone (either mobile or landline or Skyp0e)or sending a message in any other way (not precluding séance of course!) |
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dave_matkin Inner circle 4522 Posts |
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On 2008-04-19 23:27, Chance wrote: OH drat you don’t mean that stiff we say in here is said with a slight slant towards humour do you? Come on you know me - when did I ever try to be funny, let alone actually be funny? -I’m off to find the quote from Joe last year when he spat his tea all over the computer laughing! then I can learn to quote and answer my own post with "solid evidence" - Joe said so - it must be true its recorded on a chat group for the whole of history to discover" |
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Amazing Rundi New user 35 Posts |
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On 2008-04-19 21:36, Harley Newman wrote: That is interesting. However, this cannot be substantiated until such time as a film is made to prove it. Magicians/escapologists always maintain they can duplicate such phenomena - and in many cases they have indeed done so - but that has been in the past not the present. The exact phenomena and conditions of the modern seance room in the UK have not been duplicated by a magician/escapologist as far as I'm aware. I mentioned the Darren Brown seance - it was a very poor demonstration. All he had were accomplices walking around at the back of the sitters, moving things. This simply cannot be done at seances I have attended due to the lack of space. Quote:
I was shown a technique for the hand-holding, many years ago, by a very old man, who'd done seances all his life. To look at him, you would have expected total honesty. His sincerity was completely true. But it was also part of his show, and he'd made a lot of money over the course of his career. I don't think he'd ever been exposed. Interesting. Did this technique involve his hands also being tied to the arms of the chair with cable ties? Did it involve him raising his wrist through the cable tie with the sitters hand on his as a demonstration of 'matter through matter'? This is the 'phenomena' which occurs in modern seance rooms in the UK. Quote:
The whole idea of restraining the medium, is to demonstrate that they should be incapable of performing the phenomena of the seance. To me, the interesting part isn't the phenomena. But the trumpets are a nice touch. You've already answered how they're done. Sorry, but I don't understand how I've answered how the trumpets are done. I know fake mediums in the past either escape from their bonds and move them themselves by their hands or telescopic rods or have an accomplice. However in seances I have attended the medium had luminous tabs on their knees, were secured with cable ties by their wrists and had their hands and feet controlled throughout. The trumpets did not merely roll about a table but they flew at great speed all around the room extremely quickly WITHOUT banging into anybody in PITCH darkness. I would be very interested to see a magician duplicate that. I'm not saying a magician couldn't do it - I don't now. But my point is that until a magician/escaplogist reproduces such phenomena EXACTLY, under the same conditions then the sceptics explanations of how MODERN seance room phenomena is produced is not proven. Darren Brown attempted to do this - and failed miserably. What is needed is a magician to actually attend a MODERN seance and see for themselves EXACTLY what occursand under what specific conditions. They will then know what they need to produce. If they then produced a show I'm sure it would sell many tickets. And in so doing, they would be doing a great service in demonstrating to Spiritualist how such modern seance room phenomena can be produced by trickery. Yes, some will still believe, but more open-minded people would perhaps think again. |
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dave_matkin Inner circle 4522 Posts |
[quote]On 2008-04-20 04:01, Kondini wrote:
Think its time to stop the feeding. People with no name or identity,are people without substance. [quote] in your humble opinion....... [quote]I do not hide behind four walls playing games on a pc or pretend to have knowledge about things I have not. [quote] IN your humble opinion Quote:
If anyone has a problem with me, they can find me out in the open this is not the place for nitpicking or castigating those who are not around. in your humble oipinion Are I htink I was just taken over by a spirit! Argh! teh spirit or Jimmy Lundi Islnad - bit freaky really! Sorry KEN thought I would just be a pain in the arse relly! I know you don't ever give a comment about stuff you know nothing about - except you did go on and on about plumbing once! What the hell has that got to do with escapes? (Thats a private joke by the way - ken knows what plumbing has to do with is life as a performer - I know too and its not needed to be quoted adn said that it is irrelevant as it is just me playing with Ken!) Ken I Ma looking forward to seeing the video of a "modern day seance room" so that we can reporduce what happens in there. Rather than that horrible Derren brown seance that was NOT really a reproduction of todays seances and in no way a deomnstration of what happens in modern seance rooms. Ijust looked on line and found a quotes:- "The master of illusion hosts a one-off special which assembles 12 members of the public to re-create a traditional séance." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0413946/ So iguess it was successful then? No offense meant to anyone! (including ken ) PLease read with a wiered sense of humour in miund - just read over some of my older posts ou will soon get the hang of my "sense of humour". |
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dave_matkin Inner circle 4522 Posts |
[quote]On 2008-04-20 06:45, Amazing Rundi wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-04-19 21:36, Harley Newman wrote: That is interesting. However, this cannot be substantiated until such time as a film is made to prove it. [quote] could the same not be said about the phenomenon in a modern Séance? and the phenomenon that you report? so far we only have your word (and we know not weather you be a man of your word -what with you not offering a video then taking a long time to produce it JOKE!) [quote]Magicians/escapologists always maintain they can duplicate such phenomena - and in many cases they have indeed done so - but that has been in the past not the present. The exact phenomena and conditions of the modern séance room in the UK have not been duplicated by a magician/escapologist as far as I'm aware. [quote] so one could FAIRLY deduce that it COULD have been done? [quote]I mentioned the Darren Brown séance - it was a very poor demonstration. All he had were accomplices walking around at the back of the sitters, moving things. This simply cannot be done at séances I have attended due to the lack of space. [quote] So the only séances in the UK are the ones that you attend? Derren's Séance was a reproduction of a traditional séance. Is it not reasonable to assume that there could be other séances in rooms bigger than the ones you are at? Quote:
I was shown a technique for the hand-holding, many years ago, by a very old man, who'd done séances all his life. To look at him, you would have expected total honesty. His sincerity was completely true. But it was also part of his show, and he'd made a lot of money over the course of his career. I don't think he'd ever been exposed. Interesting. Did this technique involve his hands also being tied to the arms of the chair with cable ties? Did it involve him raising his wrist through the cable tie with the sitters hand on his as a demonstration of 'matter through matter'? This is the 'phenomena' which occurs in modern séance rooms in the UK. Quote:
The whole idea of restraining the medium, is to demonstrate that they should be incapable of performing the phenomena of the séance. To me, the interesting part isn't the phenomena. But the trumpets are a nice touch. You've already answered how they're done. Sorry, but I don't understand how I've answered how the trumpets are done. I know fake mediums in the past either escape from their bonds and move them themselves by their hands or telescopic rods or have an accomplice. However in séances I have attended the medium had luminous tabs on their knees, were secured with cable ties by their wrists and had their hands and feet controlled throughout. The trumpets did not merely roll about a table but they flew at great speed all around the room extremely quickly WITHOUT banging into anybody in PITCH darkness. I would be very interested to see a magician duplicate that. I'm not saying a magician couldn't do it - I don't now. But my point is that until a magician/escaplogist reproduces such phenomena EXACTLY, under the same conditions then the sceptics explanations of how MODERN séance room phenomena is produced is not proven. [quote] if it was reproduced by a magician could you not then argue that (ok we are using a FICTIONAL SCENARIO here) the magicians version was "fake" where as 'yours' was the real thing? [quote]Darren Brown attempted to do this - and failed miserably. [quote] see above pointer to what Derren tried to do... for my "argument" Quote:
What is needed is a magician to actually attend a MODERN séance and see for themselves EXACTLY what occurs and under what specific conditions. They will then know what they need to produce. If they then produced a show I'm sure it would sell many tickets. Well why can we not see a video of this? Why do we need to attend in person? I am sure we can get enough magicians and escape artists to come down and meet the medium and sit in a circle with him - what is more if it's only escape artists / magicians from this group that know each other then you will go a long way to prove your "no accomplice" statement (for which we only have your word). A friend of mine tried to arrange a visit to a séance some moths back and was basically refused entry! he was told he was not allowed to go. SO it’s a bit like saying "you have to prove this is fake by reproducing what happens but we won’t provide a video or let you see what is going on". Its a little hard to recreate something without seeing it - you are merely producing your own version of said thing and how you perceive it in your mind from what other people have told you (weather on not this is a factual set of information or not has to be trusted). With that - I sign off - to go clean up. (damn I'm gettingthe hang of this quoting thing - Thank AR |
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dave_matkin Inner circle 4522 Posts |
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On 2008-04-20 07:12, dave_matkin wrote: Aparntly not! Darn it - I hope you can tell who siad what when? |
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Amazing Rundi New user 35 Posts |
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On 2008-04-20 06:05, dave_matkin wrote: "ESCAPOLOGY — the magic art of escape. Where's the magic in escapology? As with OTHER TYPES OF MAGIC, much of the intrigue in escapology is the question "How did they do that?" - http://www.pro-magic.net/escapology.php "MAGIC: Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or baffling effects." - http://www.answers.com/topic/magic MAGIC: "the art or performing skill of producing baffling effects or illusions by sleight of hand, concealed apparatus, etc. - http://www.yourdictionary.com/magic Quote:
Do you know you are very selective about what you post ... you use quotes to make your points seem more real. My points do not "seem" any more real than they actually are. Quotes are not an illusionary method of reference which 'magically' transform points into reality. Quote:
You also make assumptions! You asked me if the video showed him escaping from a chair as in the original question - then go on to assume that it does not. No, you are completely wrong. I did NOT make any presumptions whatsoever regarding the video YOU refered to. Let us look at what I ACTUALLY wrote immediately AFTER I asked you if the video showed him escaping from a chair: Quote:
NO. His word was that he would produce a video of a cable tie escape specific to the David Thompson escape. As of yet, he hasn't provided one to any of the various people he said he would. So, sorry you are wrong. So far, he HASN'T kept his word. I'm not saying he won't keep his word, but so far he has not. And that, is all I have said - FACT. Where, in those statements, can it be seen that I 'presume' ANYTHING???? Quote:
I am going to do you a massive favour! send me / post the video that we need to reproduce and I will start work on it as soon as I look at the video - as I am a supply teacher with laryngitis I am not working right now - so I can tackle it like a "hobby" rather than a job. That is kind of you. Thank you for your offer. However, there is no video to show you. All I can do is decribe the specific conditions and phenomena produced. Quote:
I will not show methods to an outsider though. Yes, that is fair. Quote:
Oh by the way the scenario was just a point that there are 24 hours in a day and one COULD hypothetically POST a message (or send a PM) on a chat group in the morning and be dead by the time someone else in another time zone replied* to it. Your point completely fell down because you got your facts wrong (the date I posted on this thread about the video) and the fact that Wolflock emailed someone AFTER the date your scenario had had him killed. |
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Amazing Rundi New user 35 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-04-20 06:46, dave_matkin wrote: It depends on your definition of success in this specific regard. If you mean did it get a large TV audience, then it may well have done. If you mean did it accurately portray and replicate what actually occurs in some modern seance rooms then it was an abysmal failure. And this is sad. Because Darren Brown is effectively saying 'This is how fake mediums produce their seance phenomena' when in reality the phenomena is NOT produced as he portrayed in some modern seance rooms. All his seance showed were some people wandering around behind the sitters throwing and moving objects about. You don't need to know anything about magic to come up with that idea as a possible method to produce fake phenomena! The reality TODAY, however, is completely different. How can an accomplice wander around behind the sitters if the sitter's chairs are against the walls?! If Darren Brown had actually taken the trouble to attend a seance then he would not have come up with such a ridiculous 'method' to demonstrate 'how it's done'. By producing such a pathetic attempt at replication, all Darren Brown proved was that he was totally ignorant of what actually occurs in the MODERN seance room. Yes, his methods can explain how SOME seances in the past have been performed. But as an excercise in debunking MODERN seances, he failed miserably. |
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dave_matkin Inner circle 4522 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-04-20 07:43, Amazing Rundi wrote: I was going for the line “to re-create a traditional séance” traditional meaning how it has been done in the past and not “designating or of a style of improvised jazz associated historically with early black New Orleans musicians and typically played by a band made up of one or two cornets, a clarinet, a trombone, and a rhythm section that includes a banjo and a tuba” http://www.yourdictionary.com/traditional So in those terms – and based on my readings of spiritualism and Houdini’s revelation of their methods – yes I would say he was successful in showing how séances have traditionally been conducted. But I thought that was really clear when I said: Quote:
On 2008-04-20 06:46, dave_matkin wrote: Also if the “how it is done” part had been left out – i.e. no infra red etc would you have been happier? It would have shown spirit manifestations with a group of people getting freaked out in a séance (which from my reading s is what used to happen in séances – not going in to detail about the actual manifestations and exact “freaking out” details.) Or are you using the word traditional to mean MODERN DAY? I am sure one could find a definition somewhere to quote to make ones point? Look forward to reading yours. Quote:
On 2008-04-20 07:43, Amazing Rundi wrote: Don’t think that was what he was trying to do? Quote:
On 2008-04-20 07:43, Amazing Rundi wrote: How is it produced then? Now if you believe that the Séances you have attended are genuine manifestations of the spirit world then I know the answer…….. Question before I go on: - have you ever attended a séance and came to the conclusion that it was a fake? Quote:
On 2008-04-20 07:43, Amazing Rundi wrote: So where do I come to see a modern day Séance? SO we can really get this discussion moving along properly rather than this he said she said thing that it has turned in to……… TTFN Dave – now calling himself Dippy Dave – as I have been pulled in to a pointless discussion…… |
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Kondini Inner circle 3609 Posts |
Back to basics,,,,who are you ? Where are you based ? What qualifies you to knock D Brown or anyone else !!!!
Come on,,,,or are you just a spirit ? |
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dave_matkin Inner circle 4522 Posts |
I think I was channelling you when I chastised you!
ill go firs:- My name is David Matkin (AKA Dave ¡§SPARKY¡¨ Matkin) I am 33 years old, father of 2 married to Carola (no one ever pronounces her name right) I am a teacher and dyslexia specialist. ¡K¡K.. And I have been addicted t o stupid arguments for ¡K.. wait let me go back and check the date and time ¡K¡K¡K. I have a strange sense of humour ¡V which is about the only thing that ¡¥Mr play on words (but don¡¦t let anyone else do it)¡¦ agrees with ƒº well I am inferring that from one of his statement about one of my jokes not being funny ¡V I know it¡¦s a stretch but hey Now I m off to tidy up ¡V no really! |
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Harley Newman Inner circle 5117 Posts |
I'd love to see infrared video of the "modern UK" seances. I'm sure it would be similar to Derren Brown's (even without having seen it). I'm also sure, that the "spirits wouldn't cooperate", were such taping going on.
It's easy to criticize Brown for doing a traditional seance, that doesn't replicate what you've seen. Every artist has his/her own style, and there's a wealth of material to draw on. The early seances of the Fox sisters, were very different than their later ones. Their artistic sense and technique developed. They learned how to become showier, and to fit the actualities of the seance to the specific needs of their sitters. In an age of sexual restraint, some of those specific needs were, shall we say, quite intimate. They took their artform seriously. You describe what your medium does, while supposedly restrained by flex-cuffs. You also say it's done in the dark, so how do you know what's really happening? Are you believing what they told you? They have much to gain, by convincing you of this particular reality. If you assume they have scruples, they win. I'm sure they don't mind if you leave a donation on the way out. If they don't ask for one immediately, they probably holding back, waiting for a bigger score. That theme is common among con-artists (at least, the ones I know). They're addicted to the idea of the bigger score. Some can pull it off. Some can't. Rundi, you also mention that he does it without assistants. How do you know? Do they tell you that also? I find it amusing that you don't trust the feedback here, from people who have nothing to gain from you. And you trust the ones who have a lot to gain. The bit with raising one's hands while restrained, is not difficult. Check Kenton Knepper's work on the thumb-tie with flex-cuffs. Then extrapolate. If you have practical knowledge of escape-performance, you'll have no difficulty duplicating your medium. Kenton's work isn't what I'd consider beginner level, and requires both subtlety and practice. Neither is your medium a beginner. He's an expert performer. Your expertise in this is different. You're an audience member, a passive recipient of a particular kind of show. A major premise of theatre, is the willing suspension of disbelief. We love to sit and be told a story. And if the premises of the story agree with what we've been conditioned to believe, then we accept the story as real. In this discussion, our stories don't fit what you see as reality. So in this discussion, you're the skeptic. "Talking to the Dead", by Barbara Weisberg, is a nice bio of the Fox sisters and the development of their seances. I'm still chuckling about the trumpets. Didn't they become obsolete when hearing aids were invented? But they're still being used in a seance...
“You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus” -Mark Twain
www.bladewalker.com |
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