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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » U3F2? » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Chad Barnard
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Thanks for the info Bill.
Wesley James
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Gents,
Jonathan is quite right, I'm neither advocating nor excusing any "rip-off" by anyone at any time. I'm was simply pointing out that U3F was a "rip off" from Steve Duschek, as was the Flipper coin from either Phil Postma or Bob Swadling. I have heard not a word of condemnation of those who have been perpetrating these "rip-offs." Am I to believe that being the first to rip someone off is permissable if the price is high enough? If Rob Stiff is wrong, so are Bob Kohler, Todd Lassen, Jamie Schoolcraft, etc. In other words, I'm simply calling for consistency in the outrage of those who are castigating MM.

The question of whether Jonathan has been "ripped-off" is more problematic to resolve as there was no physical embodiment to be protected and patent, copyright and trademark law would all have failed to provide him the protection he argues should prevail. Even the ethical question is far from black or white in light of the events that transpired. Moreover, we can't un-ring that bell. The plot is out; we can't be asked to forget what we know and Jonathan has now released his information, so the point is moot.

I'd like to see the magic organizations (IBM and/or SAM) or the MDA (Magic Dealers Association) propagate guidelines or create a review board for determining what constitutes a legitimate variation of an existing product/effect. Unless and until such a body exists we are left to the vagaries of the existing standards, the memory of those who contribute to the dialogue and the capriciousness of the marketplace, as has been reflected on this board.

Wesley James
Chad Barnard
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Well said, Mr. James. Thanks for the clarification. Jonathan said above that I read it wrong and now I agree.
Dan Watkins
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Quote:
On 2007-10-25 12:11, Wesley James wrote:
I'm was simply pointing out that U3F was a "rip off" from Steve Duschek.


Hey Wes, just one point of clarification, Steve Dusheck doesn't feel that is the case. Steve has publicaly stated (in a thread that is unfortnately deleted now) that Bob's use was unique and different than his original use. I have been told that Bob has Steve's blessing regarding his use of this gaff.
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DP the Great
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This whole not knowing what is going on is bugging me. By the time it finally comes out I will have probably forgotten about it and moved on to the next big thing...-DP
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Dan Watkins
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Jon, I know your position very well regarding all 3 Fly routines ever created without your express permission. I was not addressing that issue, it has been addressed in countless upon countless threads. I was only specifically responding to Wesley's assertion regarding the gaff, and the fact that Dusheck supports Bob's use of the gaff. That's all.

Regarding my published work, I published it so that people would be free to perform it or experiment with the routines as they see fit. I already know of a few people who have taken some of my routines and modified them for their own preference. Some changes I think are awful, some not so, but in any event, my published work is out for public consumption. The day I released it, I knew people may one day make their own changes to the work and come up with new things based on mine. If someone copies my work verbatim, the written record is there, people know who originated it. If someone creates something completely different using some of the aesthetics of my routines, God Bless em... I stand on the shoulders of those who have come before me too.
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rutabaga
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Just thought I'd chime in for the heck of it... Dan, JT specifically mentioned your "original" work, not your "published" work. Just an observation.
Dan Watkins
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Good point rutabaga, yes I would not like my unpublished work taken. No one would. But I don't have any fear of that, I don't show my unpublished work to other magicians unless I know and trust them. I was only talking about published works, because that is the only thing people have access to.

I guess the only exception to that is some performance only pieces I have put out on video and the internet, that people could figure out and do. But I knew that risk when I put it out there. My life does not revolve around obsessing on such temporal things...
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Bob Kohler
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1) Steve Duschek and Pressley Guitar both gave me permission to put U3F on the market.
2) At last count, Townsend has made 18,497 posts on the Café, written a Genii article and made God knows how many posts on other forum. In my humble opinion, he's done a very clever job of rewriting history.

Chris Kenner should get all of the credit for inventing 3 Fly...period. What Chris and I saw Jonathan perform was not 3 Fly. As a professional magician in my opinion his routine was unusable in a live performance. It happened at waist level with the palms up. It MAY have fooled a directly overhead camera. Chris' routine and method were revolutionary. He made the 3 Fly plot the classic it deserves to be.

In my opinion, the only way to KNOW the truth would be to ask the people that were there. Ask David Roth (or watch him on the Coinvention DVD. Geoff Latta, Michael Gallo, Michael Rubinstein, Seth Kramer and many others. They'll all tell you the same truth.

Ask yourself this question...why hasnt' the Townsend routine been published. In my opinion it's because as soon as it hit the street the Townsend legend would vanish...if the routine I saw was published as I saw it.

Back on topic, U3F2 is still coming out. Like the Post Office neither Townsend's comments, Illusion Coins or anything else is going to stop it's release. Both the gaff and training have undergone huge upgrades.

Because of companies that rent our DVD's the training will be only available as streaming media. The media will be protected. Because of companies that simply copy everything the new gaff now has a patent applied for. While I've read and heard guesses as to exactly what the new gaff is it's much better than anybody's guess.

U3F2 will be released after the new web site launches.
The new training will not mention Townsend's name.
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rutabaga
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Well, that's clear as crystal. I must say I find the term "training" as used by Bob above VERY interesting! And protected streaming media too. Can't say I blame anyone in this business for being guarded with their work [assuming it IS their work – uh oh!]!
JimMaloney
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 00:37, Bob Kohler wrote:
Ask yourself this question...why hasnt' the Townsend routine been published. In my opinion it's because as soon as it hit the street the Townsend legend would vanish...if the routine I saw was published as I saw it.

Bob, I guess you're a bit behind. You may wish to check out the September 2006 Genii.

-Jim
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Jonathan Townsend
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I like that Bob is working to offer professional grade products and taking steps to protect those products. His taking a "training" approach may also be a step forward in how quality products are offered.

Some professionals are not so concerned about whose work they are using or whether permissions from the inventors have been gained before the product was offered to them.

I'm glad to see folks taking some positive steps in the "how" side of the business. I sometimes wish they'd be more attentive to the "what" and the "whose" aspects.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
ASW
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 09:33, JimMaloney wrote:

Bob, I guess you're a bit behind. You may wish to check out the September 2006 Genii.

-Jim


Jim, I think the quote from Bob Kohler that addresses your statement is this one:

Quote:
if the routine I saw was published as I saw it


Which is related to this one:

Quote:
In my humble opinion, he's done a very clever job of rewriting history.


Not taking sides, except the side of the I.O.F.E.F.T.R.P.M.C.*

ASW

*(The International Organization For Encouraging Folks To Read Posts More Closely).
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"

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jimbowmanjr
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Quote:
Because of companies that rent our DVD's the training will be only available as streaming media. The media will be protected. Because of companies that simply copy everything the new gaff now has a patent applied for. While I've read and heard guesses as to exactly what the new gaff is it's much better than anybody's guess.


Glad to see someone is taking steps to thwart piracy. I am very much looking forward to this release Bob and have been saving accordingly for the time that it is released =)

p.s. Bob is the gaff going to be a dollars only version or are there any plans to do a half dollar version as well? Just curious because of my interest in Walking Liberty coins.

--Jim
JimMaloney
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Quote:
On 2007-10-26 09:49, ASW wrote:
Jim, I think the quote from Bob Kohler that addresses your statement is this one:
Quote:
if the routine I saw was published as I saw it

Bob didn't give any indication in his post that he's read the Genii article. If he had, then he could state definitely whether or not the routine published there is the one that he saw.

I do read closely. Smile

-Jim
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Bob Kohler
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I read it...
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Jonathan Townsend
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On the quality side of offering tested and professional performance ready products to working professionals I still like Bob and his overall market approach. As far as I know it's just this one item where we are not aligned.

IMHO Bob's arguments about legitimacy of his coin product have some problems.
To cite a publication which included my ideas without permission and which also includes a sleight from Geoff Latta without permission is awkward as a foundation. May as well just claim to be a pirate up front. The act of taking such secret things public to make them popular is hardly laudable but some folks just don't care about respecting secrets.

The tale of getting permission from Steve Dusheck to use his gaff in this context reflects badly upon all involved. Terrible to make Steve complicit in copying sombody else's work. Then to confuse the folks here about Presley Guitar about this matter is not much help as they already know from Steve Dusheck himself about how the gaff was exposed and explained to Pressly along with Don Alan. That was part of the thread about another vendor from LV who seems to have started selling an item without the inventor's permission and... well some folks don't care about those who invent. Heartbreaking for some. Fairy tales for others.

But since BobK is here only to sell, I would not worry. Many here just want tricks and it looks like he is soon going to offer another item which should sell well.

As Bob wrote, the products will flow. And the pirates will continue to take. And life in neverland will be as you like it.

And please don't give your hard earned money to the folks who are offering a copy of CFWM/U3F... that's not a good thing.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
magicblademan
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Would be nice to have seen Johnathan's version performed on a video or dvd so we could have seen Johnathan perform it ...

Don't you fancy performing your version Johnathan on camera ? would be good to see.

Best

Blade
If you put the time in....you will achieve ...
Thomas Wayne
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Like Bob Kohler, Dan Watkins, and countless other knowledgeable coin magicians I have become increasingly weary of Jonathan Townsend’s endless retroactive claims to greatness.

Writing his “history” 15 years after Chris Kenner published 3 Fly sure has its advantages. It has allowed him to go back and claim all the versions that have ever been invented thus far. No one present at the time of his original coin routine (mid 80’s) remembers Townsend using any gaffs, but from the September 2006 Genii article that contains Townsend’s revisionist history you can read that he claims to have experimented with the following gaffs and devices:

He claims that in 1975 he used the Flipper Coin (Like Troy Hooser’s 3 Fly)

He claims that in 1975 he worked with the Dusheck sliding shell (genesis of Bob Kohler’s Ultimate 3 Fly)

He mentions a Jack Miller holdout (but doesn’t say he ever used one – I guess is to let people know if anyone does use a Miller holdout with the routine, he thought of that first.)

He claims that in 1976 he talks about considering a cut down coin, shell, and expanded shell (Letting it known that he considered for anything done with a Triple Threat or 3CM gimmick already).

He claims he used a gaff hooked to a pull (so he can take credit for anyone using this as a solution for a final vanish).

In other words, Townsend has pretty much wrapped up the idea of using every modern gaff used for the routine. Let him tell it, he invented everything - which is not hard to do when you get to write the history two decades after the fact.

In essence Jonathan Townsend has used the opportunity to write history decades after the fact to try to turn his lackluster coin trick into something more than it is. Clearly, anyone who reads the September 2006 Genii routine will see that his trick is a weak sister compared to the masterpiece created by Chris Kenner (the true inventor of 3 Fly). I’ve got news for ya, Jon… you can’t polish a turd.

But let’s forget, for a moment, the obvious flaws in Jonathan Townsend’s claims; after all, can’t it be said that these dissenting views are just a matter of opinion? So instead, let’s look at some known, historically recorded (and therefore unalterable) statements from the past.

On July 24, 2001 05:56 pm, Brian Marks asked his fellow readers of the Genii Magazine online forum the following question:
Quote:
“Does anyone know what happened to Jonathan Townsend? I heard 2 different things. first I heard he committed suicide than I heard he just dropped out of magic.”


A good number of responses followed, some “confirming” the rumors of Townsend’s death, some not. But of extreme interest is a response from Eric DeCamps, who had known Jonathan Townsend quite well and who had been a close friend and confidant of Townsend before he dropped from the magic scene. Within that thread on the Genii forum it becomes very clear that Eric DeCamps liked and respected Jonathan Townsend; it is also clear that DeCamps was unaware of Townsend’s [then] current condition (dead/alive?) or location. So at the time Eric DeCamps posted his recollections of the past he had no way of knowing the outrageous claims that Townsend would ultimately be making in the years to come.

Here, unedited (but with emphasis added), I reproduce the Eric DeCamps statement that – in my opinion – puts the lie to most (if not all) of Jonathan Townsend’s crazy claims:

On July 31, 2001 11:42 am, Eric DeCamps wrote:
Quote:
It's a shame when you lose contact with old friends. Yes you are very close for a while and then life deals you different hands and you go your own separate ways. It's also a shame when the old childhood game of telephone can turn out to be a real life experience. Allow me to elaborate.

Earlier today I finished a telephone conversation with my old friend Chris Kenner. The topic of the conversation was my post in this folder of July 25, 2001. In my conversation with Chris he made it quite clear that he did give Jonathan Townsend credit for the initial inspiration for Three Fly in the Magic Man Examiner. I just did not just take his word for it. I spent sometime today looking through my records and found the issue of the magazine in question (Magic Man Examiner # 2, 1991). On page five it states and I quote "Chris wants to thank Jonathan Townsend for the initial inspiration of this effect". You are correct Chris and I publicly retract and apologize for my past statement.

Furthermore, in our telephone conversation we began to dissect Jonathan's routine. Chris is again correct that the routines are different in other ways. Without having to go into detail of Jonathan's original handling here. Jonathan's routine did have what can be considered an imperfection in the construction of the routine. The handling was designed to be performed really close up for a small group of people standing (max of four or five) and not for a larger group as found in most performing situations. As I have always stated in those conditions the routine is killer. However, if the audience is seated or if you are working in a formal close up or parlor situation the routine cannot be performed.

Giving Chris his proper credit, Chris realized those problems and reworked the routine until he came up with a very strong and much more practical routine. I believe that the only things that that the routines do have in common are the first coin transposition and the sight gag of the third coin traveling 'visibly" across from the left hand to the right and then invisibly back to the left hand. Chris also informed me of something that I did not know that Jonathan applied the sight gag from a Jim Buffalo idea.

Now in all fairness to myself and for the record, I at the time also realized the same "flaws" in Jonathan's routine and independently came up with my own version cutting out the sight line problems.

During our telephone conversation it became quite clear that my old friend was more than perturbed with the fact and that many of his critics have only focused on the negatives of his routine and not the positives. Once again, Chris may be right here because in the Three Fly routine, Chris does introduce some truly outstanding original techniques in his solution to the coins across plot. If for nothing else, the introduction of the Bus Pass instead of using the standard Shuttle Pass is a major advancement in any sleight of hand artist's arsenal.

Now referring back to my opening statement regarding the childhood game of telephone. It never ceases to amaze me how this really is not a game at all but a reality. It does not just apply to what some consider "petty magic politics". Unfortunately it has to deal with the day to day business of life. Since 1991 when Chris published his routine from time to time I saw someone demonstrate Three Fly, I would relate the story that I posted here in this folder on July 25.Today in my telephone conversation with Chris, I found out that through the game of telephone those statements have been twisted and maligned to the point that I could not believe what he told me. That for the last ten years I have been "bashing " Chris for stealing the concept from Jonathan Townsend. To me this is utter nonsense. Unlike some who subscribe to this type of character assassination, by continually passing innuendos and half-truths as facts! The truth will always be the truth. Jonathan taught his routine to Chris and myself. Chris worked out his own excellent and innovative routine using Jonathan's coins across as inspiration and I also worked out my own handlings independently. That's it!!

Chris, I hope this publicly clears up any concerns you may have had regarding this subject. I hope that if there are ever any doubts that you may have in the future you do not wait ten years to air them.

Eric DeCamps

DeCamps was there when it happened, and he is clearly a friend and supporter of Jonathan Townsend. Even so, what he wrote proves that Townsend’s claims are ********! How much more does anyone need to know?

Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Hart Keene
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I would also like to see a live performance of the original VCA, as Kohler and others saw it. Would be interesting to see the timing, structure, etc.

I don't have the issue of Genii with the history but didn't it originally use quarters?

Another question...Vernon created "Twisting the Aces", so would every single creator who puts out their version be required to get Vernon's blessing prior to release if he was still alive? Or are the little changes and additions enough to let them stand alone? Jonathan?

And Jonathan, I think every magician on the Café(in the world for that matter) knows that you claim VCA as your creation. That being said, what do you want? Not being rude but I really don't know. Do you want royalties? Permission to publish anything that has to do with VCA/3 fly? Just your name mentioned in the credits? What? We can all see that is a very sore subject with you but how do we attempt to make it alright?
-Hart

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